Matrix Games Forums

A veteran player (we have played UV since version 1.0 before there even was a WITP) and I have tentatively determined that a common assumption/belief may be incorrect:

Combat reports for both sides appear to differ.

That is - if you look at the combat reports generated when Japan executes a turn - and if you look at the combat reports generated when the Allied player runs the replay - side by side - they are not identical.

They ARE close. They are usually consistent with the save game file in all respects, otherwise nearly so.

This may be intentional. It also may be a not fully implemented design intent.

IMHO it SHOULD be different - but we always believed (or read) that WITP generates the same reports - every time. Looks like the reason for this belief is no one is looking at both and comparing. They appear to differ virtually 100 per cent of the time.

I am seeking information on this matter. And we have captured report pairs which could be posted if there was interest. Also - naturally - we have informed Matrix.

Is this PBEM? You're not out of synch, mayhap?

Well - yes -

I more or less regard PBEM as the only form of WITP that really works (see Joe Wilkerson on AI games).
FTF is also possible - but we do those as PBEM as well.

And - no - we are not out of sync. It takes careful avoidance of hitting the escape button and not ending a combat early - let it go all the way to the end no matter how boreing - but reports seem in sync with replay virtually all the time.

This is different - and I think not understood: virtually all the time (a very low action turn MIGHT be an exception) - the reports generated by the Japanese player executing the turn and the Allied player executing the replay on a different machine will be slightly different - but not inconsistent with the resultant savegame file.

Can you provide an example? I'm not sure I know what your meaning is, if it's not a synch issue.

In my experience these slight differences in combat results are often due to slight differences in the pwhex.dat file. It is a form of the sync bug, but more subtle than some of the other forms if only one or two hexes differ in the two files.

It appears more general than the synch bug. That is, I believe the combat reports NORMALLY differ - that only in a turn with very little action MIGHT occasionally they be the same.

I attach the combat reports with the replay for the Allied player - so the Allied player need not generate his own reports. In such a case - both sides see identical reports. But IF the Allied player GENERATES a combat report by running the replay - THEN it will DIFFER at - say - 6 to 20 points from the one generated when the Japanese player executed the turn.

Fog of War effect?  After all, both players are seeing the reports from their perspective, not an omniscient point fo view. 

If I do a game - players DO get a different report. I have no problem IF this is intended. But the manual and forum seem to think the reports are the same - and IF they are not - players should be told the truth IMHO.

ORIGINAL: el cid again
IMHO it SHOULD be different - but we always believed (or read) that WITP generates the same reports - every time. Looks like the reason for this belief is no one is looking at both and comparing. They appear to differ virtually 100 per cent of the time.

What makes you think no one looks and compares? There are dozens of threads about the sync issue.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If I do a game - players DO get a different report. I have no problem IF this is intended. But the manual and forum seem to think the reports are the same - and IF they are not - players should be told the truth IMHO.

The truth is they are supposed to match. Did you read the last patch notes? It was thought that the sync bug was squashed but I guess not.

I just received this turn for my CHS game from FeurerKrieg. I run this utility every single time I execute a combat replay to quickly asses whether or not the replay/reports are in sync. I highly recommend a file comparison utility to all allied fan boys.



FYI we've been out of sync less than half a dozen times for this game. Your assertation that this occurs 100% of the time is flat out wrong Sir.

I am not sure this is a sync issue - which I interpret to refer to a different problem - what happens when you hit escape or terminate animated combat early - and events and reports get out of sync with each other.

But clearly you DO see the same issue I do - so - if you want to call it sync - fine by me.

I think it is a "feature" - software that does not work as intended - but in this case wholly acceptable to me. I don't want identical reports for fog of war reasons. I just want to be sure all players know this.

I also think it might be intentional - and if so - undocumentedly so. But maybe the designer was very clever - and tried to do it right. If not intentional - it might be good to make it so - and make them differe still more. Some reports seem wrong - I should not know some of the things reports tell me. Let these be dropped from the reports for my side.

From playtester Scot McConnachie of Seattle

Here is as comparison of our respective combat reports. The reports start off the same but then lose synch. I have attached both of our reports to this transmission. I do a section by section comparison in the numbered items below. I am becoming more and more curious as to whether different reports for each side is design intent. I suspect that it is but that it is not completely implemented. Regardless of your assessment, I am assuming that we keep going. The orders files and your combat reports are what I am trusting.

1) Your report has the following Allied sub attack. My report does not have this. I don't see how I would not have a report unless the game is assuming that subs don't report in all of their combats at the time that they happen. While this is potentially realistic I don't know the design intent.

Sub attack at 66,44

Japanese Ships
DD Manazuru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PC Shirataka
PC Ch 17 & Ch 18
PC Ch 15 & Ch 16
MSW W.7 & W.8
MSW W.17 & W.18
MSW W.15 & W.16
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Shirakumo

Allied Ships
SS Snapper

I have no combat report of this attack.

2) Your report has the following two air attacks on Prome, Burma.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Prome [Burma] , at 30,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 13

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Prome [Burma] , at 30,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 4

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
----------------------------------------

My report has three attacks on Prome with different details.

Day Air attack on Prome [Burma] , at 30,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 14
Ki-51 Sonia x 29

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 19

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Prome [Burma] , at 30,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 14
Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann x 8

No Japanese losses

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 1000 feet
3 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Prome [Burma] , at 30,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 16

No Japanese losses

Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet


3) Here is a difference of details. Your air attack on Midway

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island [USA] , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my report on you air attack on Midway. If the reports are supposed to be different this is a reasonable difference in reports.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island [USA] , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 1

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) However then we have your reports on my air attacks in China.

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Day Air attack on IJA 13th (Square)"B" Division, at 48,39


Allied aircraft
ROC SB-2 x 3


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x ROC SB-2 bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 4th Curved Gun Battalion, at 48,39


Allied aircraft
ROC SB-2 x 3


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x ROC SB-2 bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Mongol 8th Cav Group Brigade, at 59,23


Allied aircraft
IL-2 Shturmovik x 20


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
16 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x IL-2 Shturmovik bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did order these attacks. However I did not receive a single report on their progress. Nothing. Zip. The only way that I will be able to tell from my reports is that my aircraft will show losses or fatigue.


5) Here is your record of my air attacks in the Philippines.

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Day Air attack on IJA 65th "Brigade" Division, at 43,50


Allied aircraft
P-26A Peashooter x 15
P-35A Hawk x 9


Allied aircraft losses
P-26A Peashooter: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
31 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-26A Peashooter bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 2nd (Draft) "B" Division, at 43,53


Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 19
P-36A Mohawk x 23


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
51 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is my record of my attacks in the Philippines. I don't record an attack at Lingayen and my attack at Lucena is split into two waves, unlike your records. However, I do know that I did order a P-26 attack on Lingayen, so I believe your report more than I believe mine. I am certain that my orders file will confirm this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 48th (Motor) "B" Division, at 43,53


Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 18
P-36A Mohawk x 23


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
39 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 2nd (Draft) "B" Division, at 43,53


Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 11
P-40E Warhawk x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


6) Here is your report of my air attack on Midway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 3rd Yobieki Regiment, at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 8
F1M2 Pete-FF x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E/F Fortress x 21
B-24D/E/G Liberator x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E/F Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
90 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B-24D/E/G Liberator bombing at 5000 feet
12 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B-24D/E/G Liberator bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my report of the same attack. The differences are reasonable assuming that differences are intended.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 3rd Yobieki Regiment, at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 6
F1M2 Pete-FF x 6

Allied aircraft
B-17E/F Fortress x 16
B-24D/E/G Liberator x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E/F Fortress: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B-24D/E/G Liberator bombing at 5000 feet
9 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B-24D/E/G Liberator bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


7) Here are your reports of your air attacks in China.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROCA 31st Group Army , at 38,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-15 II / C5M2 Babs x 3
Ki-21-II Sally x 7
Ki-49 -I Helen x 14

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 -I Helen bombing at 5000 feet
10 x Ki-49 -I Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROCA 21st Field Army , at 48,39

Japanese aircraft
B5M/B5N Kate x 8
Ki-27 Nate x 26
Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann x 22
Ki-51 Sonia x 27

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
8 x B5M/B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
11 x Ki-32/30 Mary/Ann bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROCA 100th Fld Army , at 48,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-51 Sonia x 9

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my reports of your air attacks in China. I have an exact match in the first attack and no reports of the other attacks. I believe your reports more than mine.

Day Air attack on ROCA 31st Group Army , at 38,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-15 II / C5M2 Babs x 3
Ki-21-II Sally x 12
Ki-49 -I Helen x 13

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
9 x Ki-49 -I Helen bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 -I Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


8) Here are your reports of air attacks in Malaya.

Day Air attack on AA 27th (++) AIF Brigade, at 22,50

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-I Lily x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
53 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 33rd (Pack) "B"/A Division, at 22,50


Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 4
Blenheim IV/Bolngbrk x 3
Buffalo/F2A x 7
Martin 139/B-10 x 3


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV/Bolngbrk bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Martin 139/B-10 bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my reports of air attacks in Malaya. You don't see any? Neither do I see any attacks by either side.


9) Here are your reports of your air reports on my forces in the Philippines. You don't see any. Neither do I.

Here are my reports of your attacks on my forces in the Philippines. See? My people say that you did attack. I probably cannot easily determine what really happened in this case from the orders file because I would have to be tracking the attacked forces very carefully.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pp Scouts 88th Field Artillery Regiment, at 43,53

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-I Lily x 3
Ki-21-II Sally x 3

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pp Army 41st Division, at 43,53

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-I Lily x 19
Ki-51 Sonia x 9
Ki-21-II Sally x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
149 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-48-I Lily bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
6 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10) Here is your record of the naval air attacks near Midway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 98,58

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 6
D3A2 Val x 18
B5M/B5N Kate x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
B5M/B5N Kate: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
DMS Southard, Bomb hits 14, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Dorsey
AK Alchiba, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 98,58

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DMS Southard, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island [USA] , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 1

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Midway Island [USA] at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 8
D3A2 Val x 15
B5M/B5N Kate x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DMS Zane, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP St. Mihiel, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
6 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my record of the naval air attacks against Midway. I have more engagements reported. I wish I knew what the design intent is. Either way I am slaughtered. But which is real? The orders file is the final arbiter for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 98,58

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 6
D3A2 Val x 18
B5M/B5N Kate x 22

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DMS Southard, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Alchiba, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Dorsey, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 98,58

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DMS Dorsey, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Midway Island [USA] at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 13
D3A2 Val x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AP President Johnson, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Zane, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PT -74/75/76, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP St. Mihiel, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
5 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 98,58

Japanese aircraft
B5M/B5N Kate x 19

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DMS Dorsey, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Southard, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5M/B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


11) Did you know that I attacked a transport force at Georgetown, Malaya? Here is your report.


Apparently you did not receive a report. Here is my report. Given my experience with the orders file. I expect that this did not actually happen. My experience to date is that an event is only real if it happened in your combat reports, not mine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Georgetown [Malaya] at 23,44


Allied aircraft
Vildebeest/Vincent x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ryuosan Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Vildebeest/Vincent bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


12) The ground reports appear to be in synch but with different reports of casualties and minor differences in odds estimates. I wish I knew if different reports for different sides is design intent. Here are your reports.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Baguio/Balinta Pass

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 540 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 85

Defending force 9061 troops, 130 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 255

Japanese max assault: 0 - adjusted assault: 0

Allied max defense: 268 - adjusted defense: 769

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)


Japanese ground losses:
222 casualties reported
Guns lost 9


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 48,39

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1188 troops, 53 guns, 16 vehicles, Assault Value = 1302

Defending force 35216 troops, 272 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1355



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lucena [Luzon]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 48948 troops, 626 guns, 313 vehicles, Assault Value = 1213

Defending force 28476 troops, 390 guns, 313 vehicles, Assault Value = 930



Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Midway Island [USA]

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 4102 troops, 41 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 187

Defending force 10412 troops, 245 guns, 59 vehicles, Assault Value = 130

Japanese max assault: 76 - adjusted assault: 1

Allied max defense: 105 - adjusted defense: 112

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)


Japanese ground losses:
1065 casualties reported
Guns lost 23

Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Midway Island [USA]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9214 troops, 232 guns, 53 vehicles, Assault Value = 129

Defending force 6862 troops, 56 guns, 19 vehicles, Assault Value = 125



Here are my ground combat reports. In your attack at Midway, you actually record taking more ground losses than I record you taking. That is possible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Baguio/Balinta Pass

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 540 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 85

Defending force 9061 troops, 130 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 255

Japanese max assault: 0 - adjusted assault: 0

Allied max defense: 268 - adjusted defense: 1177

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)


Japanese ground losses:
148 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 48,39

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1188 troops, 53 guns, 16 vehicles, Assault Value = 1302

Defending force 35393 troops, 278 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1362



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lucena [Luzon]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 48966 troops, 627 guns, 313 vehicles, Assault Value = 1211

Defending force 28271 troops, 383 guns, 312 vehicles, Assault Value = 922



Allied ground losses:
1 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Midway Island [USA]

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 4099 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 190

Defending force 10412 troops, 245 guns, 59 vehicles, Assault Value = 130

Japanese max assault: 146 - adjusted assault: 3

Allied max defense: 125 - adjusted defense: 120

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)


Japanese ground losses:
714 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Allied ground losses:
36 casualties reported
Guns lost 3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Midway Island [USA]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9198 troops, 230 guns, 53 vehicles, Assault Value = 127

Defending force 7249 troops, 61 guns, 19 vehicles, Assault Value = 148

Very interesting.

Of course the designers will attribute it to the synch bug.

You know, the guys who put out WITP Vanilla.

I would prefer wildly differing Combat reports(even in the sunk ships file), I often feel that players know too much about what is happening.

And you are correct. Differing reports contribute to fog of war. Players of games (unless I design them) know far too much. Sometimes reports border on nonsensical: short of spies how would we know submarine USS Gatun (fictional)
is loading supplies at San Diego??? Or lots of other things.

Here it is my intent to insure that players understand that different reports appear to be SOP - normal case or common case - and may not be (or not entirely) due to a synch bug. Even absent a synch problem I think it happens. Of course - that depends on what the technical definition of the synch bug is. If you define it as a synch bug when you get different reports - well then of course it would be that. But that then is not the cause - it is merely the definiton of the term.

I rebuilt the replay and save game files after rebooting - and note I did NOT "turn Japanese combat reports off" as suggested in one thread. This produced a replay that produced an identical combat report.

Scot - a programmer - concludes:

Also, it is an exact match, which invalidates the hypothesis that the reports are intended to be different.


The rebuilt replay matches the report you sent me earlier. We are in synch.

end quote

I am skeptical that rebooting is the issue either - I took the idea from the same thread as "turn Japanese reports off" - but I have yet to demonstrate my theory - just restarting WITP - is good enough. For the moment I recommend either restarting the program (which I think works) or rebooting (which I know works).

I disagree that the reports are different all (or most) of the time.

As already pointed out by OSO - he runs his utility and it shows 100% identical nearly all the time. We've been out of sync a few times, and those times of course, the reports were different. But 98% of the time the reports are IDENTICAL. And this is in a game that into Feb 1943, so lots of turns of sample data.