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Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 pm
by gwgardner
Quoting these snippets from another thread, in which Chuck lays out his lend-lease/PP convoy approach in our current PBEM game:
ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung
not one PP went to the non beligerent Soviet Union from the USA, in my AAR game.
Not one PP went to Great Britain from the USA till the Lend Lease event fired, at which point only the 50PP went to Great Britain.
When Germany invaded the USSR, per the lend lease event the USA sent 50PP to the Soviet Union too.
How did the USA shipments cause problems worthy of so much fixing?
USA shipments = red herring.
Chuck
Pretty clear that the Russian strength, in research and number of units, in comparison to the Germans, in our PBEM game was not due to US PPs.
What OTHER factors led to the Russians having such high levels of research and high numbers of bodies on the ground, in 1941? Again, referring to our PBEM game.
I agree with James or Michael, or whoever else made the point, that the game would be more fun if this ahistorical balance could be corrected. But the 'correction' doesn't necessarily have to involve limitations on the game system. Could be mods, or different approaches to playing the game.
Possible reasons for the imbalance in our PBEM, in June 1941 (I deliberately waited till the historical date to do Barbarossa):
1) my imcompetence as the Axis player - nah, I'm not that bad.
2) too much emphasis by the Axis on air unit reinforcements? Very expensive in PPs.
3) too much emphasis by the Axis on research? Again very expensive.
4) Not enough German armor? I had less than historical, I believe, but more would have been hugely expensive.
5) German dalliance in Spain? nah, cost some PPs, but did not delay Barbarrosa.
6) took too long to take France? - not really, but was costly in air unit PPs
7) I suspect Chuck salvaged his Russian air units and converted those into extra PPs, but don't know if that's the case.
Anyone else have ideas? Possibilities? There was an ahistorical balance in our PBEM in 1941, so how to address it without limiting the freedom of game-play possibilities.
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:54 pm
by cpdeyoung
To make the analysis as accurate as possible :
Barbarossa on actual start date : I may well start the invasion earlier in our new game.
1. Agreed, you played very well.
2. I am suspicious of this, but they did give your attacks real oomph.
3. I spend on research also, but somethimes am willing to live by a single bulb.
4. Don't think the answer is in armor. If you had more I would have hated it though.
5. I hate that you took Portugal, and Spain had to come in to get it! Also taking the Rock is big.
6. The answer is not likely here either.
7. I just never built them.
I never shipped PP from the USA to the USSR.
I did ship from France to the USSR : Not major
I did ship a ton from Great Britain to the USSR : Huge factor in my opinion. Perhaps a thousand extra PP, maybe not, but a lot!
Chuck
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:13 pm
by gwgardner
ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung
I did ship a ton from Great Britain to the USSR : Huge factor in my opinion. Perhaps a thousand extra PP, maybe not, but a lot!
Chuck
That's interesting. Definitely a factor. Just wondering how ahistorical that was. How much aid did Britain give to the USSR historically, before Barbarossa?
I'm not complaining. It's a fair strategy. And no reason any player has to do things historically.
Oh, I forgot to add to my list:
9) my aborted invasion of Scotland, leading to the loss of approx. 6 divisions.
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:16 pm
by James Ward
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Quoting these snippets from another thread, in which Chuck lays out his lend-lease/PP convoy approach in our current PBEM game:
ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung
not one PP went to the non beligerent Soviet Union from the USA, in my AAR game.
Not one PP went to Great Britain from the USA till the Lend Lease event fired, at which point only the 50PP went to Great Britain.
When Germany invaded the USSR, per the lend lease event the USA sent 50PP to the Soviet Union too.
How did the USA shipments cause problems worthy of so much fixing?
USA shipments = red herring.
Chuck
Pretty clear that the Russian strength, in research and number of units, in comparison to the Germans, in our PBEM game was not due to US PPs.
What OTHER factors led to the Russians having such high levels of research and high numbers of bodies on the ground, in 1941? Again, referring to our PBEM game.
I agree with James or Michael, or whoever else made the point, that the game would be more fun if this ahistorical balance could be corrected. But the 'correction' doesn't necessarily have to involve limitations on the game system. Could be mods, or different approaches to playing the game.
Possible reasons for the imbalance in our PBEM, in June 1941 (I deliberately waited till the historical date to do Barbarossa):
1) my imcompetence as the Axis player - nah, I'm not that bad.
2) too much emphasis by the Axis on air unit reinforcements? Very expensive in PPs.
3) too much emphasis by the Axis on research? Again very expensive.
4) Not enough German armor? I had less than historical, I believe, but more would have been hugely expensive.
5) German dalliance in Spain? nah, cost some PPs, but did not delay Barbarrosa.
6) took too long to take France? - not really, but was costly in air unit PPs
7) I suspect Chuck salvaged his Russian air units and converted those into extra PPs, but don't know if that's the case.
Anyone else have ideas? Possibilities? There was an ahistorical balance in our PBEM in 1941, so how to address it without limiting the freedom of game-play possibilities.
The two biggest factors are the starting levels of the Russian forces and their peacetime production.
Russian infantry was horribley trained, equipped and led in 1941. They start almost equal to Germany.
The Russian production is also out of whack. For example if Germany takes everything when they historically did up to the fall of France, there are turns where the Russians out PP the Germans including all the German conquered territories.
I don't think slowing down the Russian production would throw the game to out of whack, eventually the production would ramp up.
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:23 pm
by cpdeyoung
Historically Great Britain, was spending all its PP in North Africa, and replacing escorts, and rebuilding after the loss of the Hood, etc.
My British had all these PP on their hands and you were ignoring her, so she shipped them to the Soviets.
I was very historical : I rebuilt all damaged ships, responded to all allied aggression in North Africa, generously garrisoned the British Isles, and then shipped every point I could find to our gallant Soviets!
The great majority of my PP shipments were after Barbarossa, but I did send some before, from France and Britain. Hey, I was twiddling my thumbs!
Chuck
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:24 pm
by gwgardner
ORIGINAL: James Ward
The two biggest factors are the starting levels of the Russian forces and their peacetime production.
Russian infantry was horribley trained, equipped and led in 1941. They start almost equal to Germany.
The Russian production is also out of whack. For example if Germany takes everything when they historically did up to the fall of France, there are turns where the Russians out PP the Germans including all the German conquered territories.
I don't think slowing down the Russian production would throw the game to out of whack, eventually the production would ramp up.
Good points. Worthy of a mod. Personally, in game terms, I think the Russkies shouldn't have beginning research levels above that of the minors. They had QUANTITY, and POTENTIAL, not quality.
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:25 pm
by gwgardner
Ok, good point, Chuck: add to my list 10) I totally gave up on North Africa, thereby taking pressure off Britain to spend its PPs on itself.
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:26 pm
by cpdeyoung
9. The Scottish invasion was brilliant. I pulled troops out of France in a flash. You terrified me!
Chuck
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:41 pm
by cpdeyoung
Dear Gary,
As you know, we are playing "Road to Where" for fun, and as an experiment in PBEM. I do not want to continue if you feel your continued participation will be a lesson in determined defense against great odds. I do not think I will take you out easily, but I am becoming more confident that in the long run you might be defeated.
If you feel we have had our fun, and learned our lessons, then, as I offered you in private, we can put this very excellent experience aside, and concentrate on the turnaround game we have planned. There is still much to learn in "Road to Where" and I am up for continuation as a learning experience, but it might cease to be fun. Playing you has been one of the great gaming experiences of my life, and I have been gaming nearly 50 years. Let's play on, or switch to the new game, but let's play for the rest of our lives!
Chuck
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:56 pm
by gwgardner
I'm up for continuing. I'd like to see who gets to Berlin first, and how. I'll try not to make it easy for you. (well, easier.)
RE: Current Russian superiority issues
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:07 pm
by cpdeyoung
You got it, my friend!
