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Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:00 am
by Michael the Pole
I've been doing some more specific research the last couple of weeks on the play-balance question, and thought that I'd make a couple of notes available to the community. (These are offered in the spirit that there is nothing more annoying than unexpected facts[:'(])

We all know that the Germans and the Soviets executed a trade agreement secondary to the Molotov/Ribbentrop Agreement that dismembered Poland and gave the USSR the three Baltic States. The actual ammount of raw material (PPs) sent to Germany is rather startling. I'm quoting from the Wiki article (which is no more dependable than other such articles in the Wiki, but does seem to agree with other sources available on the web. I recomend it for light bathroom reading.[>:] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-Sov ... otal_Trade) (please note that we are talking TONS of this stuff!)

"Germany received massive quantities of raw materials, including over:
1,600,000 tons of grains
900,000 tons of oil
200,000 tons of cotton
140,000 tons of manganese
200,000 tons of phosphates
20,000 tons of chrome ore
18,000 tons of rubber
100,000 tons of soybeans
500,000 tons of iron ores
300,000 tons of scrap metal and pig iron
2,000 kilograms of platinum
Large amounts of crude oil were delivered, with German documents in July of 1940 already indicating that the Soviets had delivered crude oil at a rate of 150,000 tons a month for five months in 900 German tank cars exclusively reserved for it.
The trade pact helped Germany to surmount the British blockade of Germany. By June of 1940, Soviet imports comprised over 50% of Germany's total imports, and often exceed 70% of total German imports before the Hitler broke the pact in June of 1940."

Its hard to quantify these amounts of raw materials as PP, but I think that we have to take some notice of these transfers. The value consistantly placed on this material is 800 million Duetchmarks!

"Ironically, (again quoting the Wiki article) despite fears causing the Soviet Union to enter deals with Germany in 1939, that Germany came so close to destroying the Soviet Union was due largely to Soviet actions taken from 1939 to 1941. Without Soviet imports, German stocks would have run out in several key products by October of 1941, within three and a half months. Germany would have already run through their stocks of rubber and grain before the first day of the invasion were it not for Soviet imports...
Without Soviet deliveries of these four major items, Germany could barely have attacked the Soviet Union, let alone come close to victory, even with more intense rationing."

Another interesting fact involves just exactly what Hitler was supposed to give the Soviets in return for this stuff. (Again quoting from Wiki 'cause its easier...)

"Germany, which was provided 27 months to finish delivery of its goods, procrastinated as long as possible. Germany did initially deliver some floating cranes, five aircraft, an electrode shop, several gun turrets (with fire control apparatuses and spare parts), two submarine periscopes and additional ship construction tools. A few months later it delivered a sample of its harvest technology... Germany delayed its delivery of the Hipper [class ed.]cruiser Lützow and the plans for the Bismarck as long as possible, hoping to avoid delivery altogether if the war developed favorably. The incomplete Lützow was towed to Leningrad in mid-1940 in a less complete state than the Soviets had anticipated. In response to later Soviet orders, Germany did deliver eight 38.1 cm guns and six 40 cm guns for which the Soviets had requested drawings. The Lützow, which was not yet completed, was towed to Leningrad, where German engineers worked on the vessel until June 22, 1941... "
At the time of the invasion, the Lützow was still not yet complete enough for sea travel, but four 20.3 cm turrets had been installed. The Soviets used her as a floating gun battery against German invaders.

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:12 pm
by doomtrader
This is all truth you are writing.

The only way to implement this deal is to make it for both players (German and Soviet), as without choice.
We all know the history and we know that even after Barbarossa started, German troops captured trains with loads of goods sent to Germany. So why Soviet player should sent all this materials if he knows that Barbarossa will start sooner or later. It's like giving a gun to the man who is planning to rob you.

On the other hand It might be simulated somehow as without any doubt it helped German industry running.

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:33 pm
by gwgardner
You could make the Russian shipments of PPs to Germany optional, if you provided a penalty for not doing it, such as a big diplo bonus for Germany. that would be quite interesting in terms of game play.

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:26 pm
by Michael the Pole
ORIGINAL: doomtrader

This is all truth you are writing.

The only way to implement this deal is to make it for both players (German and Soviet), as without choice.
We all know the history and we know that even after Barbarossa started, German troops captured trains with loads of goods sent to Germany. So why Soviet player should sent all this materials if he knows that Barbarossa will start sooner or later. It's like giving a gun to the man who is planning to rob you.

On the other hand It might be simulated somehow as without any doubt it helped German industry running.
You'll notice that I managed to restrain myself from making any suggestion as to how on earth we can handle this. hahaha[:o]
Actually, several authors make that point, Doomtrader. Its further proof of how totaly determined Stalin was to maintain peace with Germany at any cost -- being completely convinced that the day the Nazis crossed the border his regime (and his lifespan) could be measured in weeks.
Again (and I know I'm beating a dead horse here) it shows how improbable a Soviet declaration of war against Germany would be in January 1942.

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:40 pm
by Michael the Pole
ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

You'll notice that I managed to restrain myself from making any suggestion as to how on earth we can handle this. hahaha[:o]

All right, all right, I cant help myself... How about this? A Soviet human player against an AI Nazi. If you accept Molotov/Ribbentrop and the division of Poland, you must provide 50 PP per turn to the Nazis or the AI immediately declares war.
Hell, I dont know[&:]

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:01 pm
by doomtrader
I was thinking about something similar
If R-M was historical and as long as Germany and USSR are in peace Soviet Union sends some PP to Germany.
From time to time Soviets will get possibility to break the deal. If they do so then Germans have an opportunity to declare war against Soviets with highly decreased effectivenes for some time.

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:09 pm
by cpdeyoung
I suspect this is built into the game, so we would probably have to readjust the production if we were going to make it explicit rather than implicit.
 
I think the Soviets declaration of war against the Germans will always depend on the calculus of forces at the time of the decision.  If in January 1942 the Germans are struggling with France and England then the Soviets may well stab them in the back.  If Germany is astride all western Europe, and turning her eyes eastward perhaps not.
 
I would like to have some way of varying the predictability of events, perhaps a slider for :
 
More Historical << >> More Alternative
&nbsp;
Chuck

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:33 pm
by doomtrader
The only thing that comes with the game is to decrease chance of firing the event (ie 1% each turn)

RE: Nazi-Soviet Trade Pact

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:57 pm
by H. Hoth
ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

I've been doing some more specific research the last couple of weeks on the play-balance question, and thought that I'd make a couple of notes available to the community. (These are offered in the spirit that there is nothing more annoying than unexpected facts[:'(])

We all know that the Germans and the Soviets executed a trade agreement secondary to the Molotov/Ribbentrop Agreement that dismembered Poland and gave the USSR the three Baltic States. The actual ammount of raw material (PPs) sent to Germany is rather startling. I'm quoting from the Wiki article (which is no more dependable than other such articles in the Wiki, but does seem to agree with other sources available on the web. I recomend it for light bathroom reading.[>:] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-Sov ... otal_Trade) (please note that we are talking TONS of this stuff!)

"Germany received massive quantities of raw materials, including over:
1,600,000 tons of grains
900,000 tons of oil
200,000 tons of cotton
140,000 tons of manganese
200,000 tons of phosphates
20,000 tons of chrome ore
18,000 tons of rubber
100,000 tons of soybeans
500,000 tons of iron ores
300,000 tons of scrap metal and pig iron
2,000 kilograms of platinum
Large amounts of crude oil were delivered, with German documents in July of 1940 already indicating that the Soviets had delivered crude oil at a rate of 150,000 tons a month for five months in 900 German tank cars exclusively reserved for it.
The trade pact helped Germany to surmount the British blockade of Germany. By June of 1940, Soviet imports comprised over 50% of Germany's total imports, and often exceed 70% of total German imports before the Hitler broke the pact in June of 1940."

Its hard to quantify these amounts of raw materials as PP, but I think that we have to take some notice of these transfers. The value consistantly placed on this material is 800 million Duetchmarks!

"Ironically, (again quoting the Wiki article) despite fears causing the Soviet Union to enter deals with Germany in 1939, that Germany came so close to destroying the Soviet Union was due largely to Soviet actions taken from 1939 to 1941. Without Soviet imports, German stocks would have run out in several key products by October of 1941, within three and a half months. Germany would have already run through their stocks of rubber and grain before the first day of the invasion were it not for Soviet imports...
Without Soviet deliveries of these four major items, Germany could barely have attacked the Soviet Union, let alone come close to victory, even with more intense rationing."

Another interesting fact involves just exactly what Hitler was supposed to give the Soviets in return for this stuff. (Again quoting from Wiki 'cause its easier...)

"Germany, which was provided 27 months to finish delivery of its goods, procrastinated as long as possible. Germany did initially deliver some floating cranes, five aircraft, an electrode shop, several gun turrets (with fire control apparatuses and spare parts), two submarine periscopes and additional ship construction tools. A few months later it delivered a sample of its harvest technology... Germany delayed its delivery of the Hipper [class ed.]cruiser Lützow and the plans for the Bismarck as long as possible, hoping to avoid delivery altogether if the war developed favorably. The incomplete Lützow was towed to Leningrad in mid-1940 in a less complete state than the Soviets had anticipated. In response to later Soviet orders, Germany did deliver eight 38.1 cm guns and six 40 cm guns for which the Soviets had requested drawings. The Lützow, which was not yet completed, was towed to Leningrad, where German engineers worked on the vessel until June 22, 1941... "
At the time of the invasion, the Lützow was still not yet complete enough for sea travel, but four 20.3 cm turrets had been installed. The Soviets used her as a floating gun battery against German invaders.
You done your research on wikipedia? LoL you sir are exposed as a fraud that you are. From this point on, for every thing you post I will rip you apart like the old fart that you are. Do you have to get large print books?