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I'm working on a mod that offers the Japanese player maximum freedom of choice.
That means, the Japs may also attack Northwards and join the Germans in their attack against Russia.
The starting date isn't that wrong. Maybe Japan was afraid of Russia after the border battles and didn't expect Germany to win the war - so why join a lost cause? But on 7th of Dezember 1941, Germany is at the borders of Moscow. Huge amounts of elite Siberian forces were shipped to the west, so Siberia lies quite open.

It shall be the players choice whether to attack Russia and not the Allies.
Both players have an advantege:
The Japanese player may secure his northern border and gain access to the richness of Siberia and if he manages to whipe the Soviets of the map - even to Caucasian oil (Germany shares with his ally through railroad transports/pipelines) and the ressources and industry of the Ural.
The Allied player can build up his forces. He can fortify the key bases etc. So while he will finally have to fight against a Japan quite independent from DEI oil and with the manchurian forces freed to fight the allies, he can prepare himself without being attacked! No Pearl Harbour, no bombing of Manila, no Zero-Advantege, no Bettys depredating fleeing allied shipping...


The question now is:
How would the allies on the map react?
Would Britain again declare war against the nation attacking Russia like against Finland? I hardly think Churchill would risk british Asia for Russia, no?
If Britain attacks - when would the USA follow? I hardly believe Roosevelt would achieve in bringing the US to war immediately, so with which delay would they join?
If Britain declares war, whould DEI, Australia and NZ follow?

If Britain doesn't attack, when would the Allies begin the war themselves?

This is an option in all RHS Russian Active Scenarios:

these include RAO (= CVO with active Russians)
BBO (= CVO but with ships built more as planned and less as planning got modified after PH and Midway)
YPO ( = BBO but a shorter campaign - and no Pearl Harbor attack)
all EOS scenarios (EOS, EEO, EBO and MEBO) except the AI versions (which are for training mainly) AIO and MAIO

The only problem is - well you have to figure out how to spread yourself that thin - in terms of units and logistics.
You have a better chance in EOS family - due to a stronger Japan - due to better planning.

If you needed a modified version of a scenario - I do that sort of thing pretty fast.

The Allies should respond - assuming they think Stalin would agree - by building a LOC of bases along the Alaska-Aleutians-Komandorskie-Kamchatka chain - resulting in a direct attack on Japan via the Kurils and Hokkaido - medium bombers could be used in numbers for this - and it will end the war faster. Japan - already spread too thin - cannot strongly oppose yet another front - and this front could be very strong - due to the availablility of bases. This was actually planned - complete with a RR to Nome - and I will issue a pwhex for that if you want it.

A RHS scenario with that might be an option, yes

But I want that option in my mod - but not with also the allies at war, so no Allied LOC to the Russians.
In my mod, the player can decide to attack the Russians INSTEAD of the Allies! There'll be several House Rules needed and it's not the place to discuss them here or whether this works/makes sense, etc.

It's simply a question to all here what they expect the allies to do when they wake up on the morning of december 7th 1941 to hear that the japs attacked Russia.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I'm working on a mod that offers the Japanese player maximum freedom of choice.
That means, the Japs may also attack Northwards and join the Germans in their attack against Russia.
The starting date isn't that wrong. Maybe Japan was afraid of Russia after the border battles and didn't expect Germany to win the war - so why join a lost cause? But on 7th of Dezember 1941, Germany is at the borders of Moscow. Huge amounts of elite Siberian forces were shipped to the west, so Siberia lies quite open.

It shall be the players choice whether to attack Russia and not the Allies.
Both players have an advantege:
The Japanese player may secure his northern border and gain access to the richness of Siberia and if he manages to whipe the Soviets of the map - even to Caucasian oil (Germany shares with his ally through railroad transports/pipelines) and the ressources and industry of the Ural.
The Allied player can build up his forces. He can fortify the key bases etc. So while he will finally have to fight against a Japan quite independent from DEI oil and with the manchurian forces freed to fight the allies, he can prepare himself without being attacked! No Pearl Harbour, no bombing of Manila, no Zero-Advantege, no Bettys depredating fleeing allied shipping...


The question now is:
How would the allies on the map react?
Would Britain again declare war against the nation attacking Russia like against Finland? I hardly think Churchill would risk british Asia for Russia, no?
If Britain attacks - when would the USA follow? I hardly believe Roosevelt would achieve in bringing the US to war immediately, so with which delay would they join?
If Britain declares war, whould DEI, Australia and NZ follow?

If Britain doesn't attack, when would the Allies begin the war themselves?

The Allies were pretty sure Japan was going to war with somebody. Nobody was sure whether it was going to be the USSR or the war as it turned out. There was an employee in the German embassy in Japan who was a closet communist and privy to Japan's war plans. He got information that Japan was planning on attacking the DEI and the US and passed it on to Stalin, who used the information to strip the Far East and bring extra divisions to the defense of Moscow. the same spy had warned Stalin of the impending invasion in June, 1941, but was ignored at the time.

Churchill both welcomed and loathed the inclusion of Japan in the war. His resources were already stretched to the breaking point before Dec 7 and adding Japan into the mix was more than the British Empire could handle. On the other hand, he welcomed the US's joining the war effort. When he heard about Pearl Harbor, his first comment was, "so, we have won after all".

Realistically, Japan wouldn't have invaded Russia. There was little in Siberia or the Russian Far East they wanted. What Japan was starving for was oil, and the best source for it was in the DEI. They needed the DEI because the US had slapped an oil embargo on them over the war in China.

At that time, the US was the biggest supplier of oil in the world. Other major sources were in Russia (Stalingrad (now Volgograd) is a on the edge of the Russian oil fields), the DEI (now Indonesia), and the Middle East. The US was too big to capture, the oil in Russia and the Middle East were too far away to be considered, so the DEI was the only option.

Another factor is Japan was a naval power, not a continental one. Russia was a continental power. Continental powers' premiere service is the army. Usually their other services are there to support army operations. This was especially true with the USSR. With continental powers, technological innovation goes into the army first. The USSR built T-34s and their navy was an afterthought.

With naval powers like England and Japan, their navy is the premiere service. The army is for home defense and usually does not operate outside of the range of their naval forces. One of Britain's most famous land battles is Dunkirk where the navy saved the army from complete destruction. (Hitler, being from a continental power made a mistake at Dunkirk, for a continental power, being backed to the sea is a disaster and he thought the British were finished. He left the British to stew at Dunkirk while he focused his energies southward. For a naval power, it is an opportunity and the British took it, thus saving a good portion of their expeditionary army.)

Japan had invested a lot of capital into building a navy for an epic sea battle. The army had control of the government in the 1930s and they were off on adventures in China, but the one clash they had with Russia in the 1930s proved that the Russian bear was not something they were prepared to deal with.

The Japanese navy was designed for control of the Pacific. Or at least a portion of it. And that's what they tried to do. If they hadn't been bogged down in their own Vietnam in China, the Pacific War would have been much tougher. For a naval power, controlling many small islands across a large ocean is an ideal situation. Heavily garrison the islands and the navy keeps the net intact.

The problem was Japan decided to take on the largest industrial power on the planet (the US had more than 50% of all industrial production in the world in 1940) and they were already stretched thin in China.

That said, the British would have almost certainly had a sigh of relief if the Japanese had gone north. They would have made noises of supporting the USSR and continued convoys to Murmansk, but would not have gone to war with Japan. The US may have been dragged in eventually. Roosevelt was trying to get the US into the war, though the US might have just reinforced the Philippines and left Japan alone.

Bill

That said, the British would have almost certainly had a sigh of relief if the Japanese had gone north. They would have made noises of supporting the USSR and continued convoys to Murmansk, but would not have gone to war with Japan. The US may have been dragged in eventually. Roosevelt was trying to get the US into the war, though the US might have just reinforced the Philippines and left Japan alone.

But when would the US and England join the fight? When do you expect or suggest them to enter the war?
Maybe because of continuing sinking of US shipping by german subs as well as attacks against Land Lease convois for russia by Japan? The Japs had showed in both the first Japanese-Chinese war of 1894-1895 and the japanese-russian war of 1904-1905 that they are willed to attack neutral shipping if it carries contraband.
There'll be several additional HRs needed but as the witp map is focussing on rather the southern than the northern area, both sides must finally go to war.

The spy you are talking about was the communist Dr. Richard Sorge. He was later hanged.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

A RHS scenario with that might be an option, yes

But I want that option in my mod - but not with also the allies at war, so no Allied LOC to the Russians.
In my mod, the player can decide to attack the Russians INSTEAD of the Allies! There'll be several House Rules needed and it's not the place to discuss them here or whether this works/makes sense, etc.

It's simply a question to all here what they expect the allies to do when they wake up on the morning of december 7th 1941 to hear that the japs attacked Russia.

The Allies - at least Allied political and military leaders - would be in a general state of rejoicing. The IJA actually wanted to "strike North" - and had based its planning on that to such a degree its aircraft lacked suitable ranges for an oceanic war. The change to "srike South" was done as unwillingly as can be - and out of response to the embargo of oil, iron ore and rubber - which in a sense was the real causus belli - it was understood that it would be - and it was done to force Japan to attack (or seem to start the war). That is - the nominal theory that Japan was going to reverse its China policy - in response to the embargo - was in no place actually believed by a politicial or military leader.

Unless your intent is to demonstrate WHY Japanese soldiers - who controlled the regime - opted to strike South - you must choose a mod in which logistics are not a consideration (that is, you can NOT use RHS). Japan needed (and should need) to capture the SRA at least for the oil of NEI (and Brunei) - and IRL for other things (e.g. tin on Banka Island, both to use - although it is excessive to Japanese needs - and also to deny it to the Allies - who otherwise have a real problem with quantity) and similar issues. [The main source of antimony for the whole world is New Caledonia - there is but one tiny antimony mine in the USA - at Thompson Falls Montana - inadequate. Japan planned to capture New Caledonia - not only as a forward and defensable and somewhat self sustaining base to wage LOC warfare from - and not only to obtain its minerals - but to deny them to its enemies.] The strike North concept was possible in every other sense - Asiatic USSR is weak - wealthy - full of non Russians - millions of whom had moved to Manchukuo. There was a Japanese RUSSIAN brigade - led by a Russian general - that might be of some value in an invasion. But two factors were decisive: by August 1941 Japanese intelligence (which included traveling on the Trans Siberian RR) had concluded the USSR could not be defeated by Germany (even if stabbed in the back) - and Japan was on a 30 month clock re oil - the clock started running in July - and it was going to run out UNLESS oil was captured. Sakhalin does not supply enough oil to stop the clock - and the estimates turned out to be optimistic - oil was used faster than the 30 month rate.

The Allies - Russia and NEI are ALREADY allies of the USSR - and the USA is ALREADY supplying substantial aid to the USSR - mainly over the route to Vladivostok (measured by weight of aid) - which cannot be done in the game (how do you stop Japan attacking it? And how do you force most of what you deliver to exit the map - to the West?). But in principle they would understand that the fall of the USSR is a big bad news bear - and not in their interest. [Fear of a separate peace was big - France already had gone that way - and Stalin was no friend of anyone and would do so if it was better for his interests.] That means that the MINIMUM US response would be to send more and better aircraft to the USSR - and that at the expense of US forces. So - you can structure that into the game by changing build rates for whatever period you think this might last. But the main feature of US thinking is LOGISTIC - and the main thinking in 1941/early 1942 was to BUILD the RR to Nome - build bases in Alaska (the latter happened - the former resulted in the ALCAN in 1942 -
but it ended at Fairbanks and the RR was not built). This thinking was ended by STALIN - not the US - and IF he was in trouble - he might have said something other than "no way." The political problem for the US is - how to declare war - it is ALREADY at war in the Atlantic (or the Navy is)? Japan attacking Russia is not grounds for war. Germany would not then declare war as it did - no grounds there either. But FDR had measures to create a war in place - see The Cruise of the Lanokai - by RADM Vince Trolly - her commander. It was going to happen. But if it happens with no force headed to the oil fields - Japan is going to run out of gas (literally) by the end of 1943. So end the scenario then - and if Japan has not won - it lost.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Allies were pretty sure Japan was going to war with somebody. Nobody was sure whether it was going to be the USSR or the war as it turned out. There was an employee in the German embassy in Japan who was a closet communist and privy to Japan's war plans. He got information that Japan was planning on attacking the DEI and the US and passed it on to Stalin, who used the information to strip the Far East and bring extra divisions to the defense of Moscow. the same spy had warned Stalin of the impending invasion in June, 1941, but was ignored at the time.

Churchill both welcomed and loathed the inclusion of Japan in the war. His resources were already stretched to the breaking point before Dec 7 and adding Japan into the mix was more than the British Empire could handle. On the other hand, he welcomed the US's joining the war effort. When he heard about Pearl Harbor, his first comment was, "so, we have won after all".

Realistically, Japan wouldn't have invaded Russia. There was little in Siberia or the Russian Far East they wanted. What Japan was starving for was oil, and the best source for it was in the DEI. They needed the DEI because the US had slapped an oil embargo on them over the war in China.

At that time, the US was the biggest supplier of oil in the world. Other major sources were in Russia (Stalingrad (now Volgograd) is a on the edge of the Russian oil fields), the DEI (now Indonesia), and the Middle East. The US was too big to capture, the oil in Russia and the Middle East were too far away to be considered, so the DEI was the only option.

Another factor is Japan was a naval power, not a continental one. Russia was a continental power. Continental powers' premiere service is the army. Usually their other services are there to support army operations. This was especially true with the USSR. With continental powers, technological innovation goes into the army first. The USSR built T-34s and their navy was an afterthought.

With naval powers like England and Japan, their navy is the premiere service. The army is for home defense and usually does not operate outside of the range of their naval forces. One of Britain's most famous land battles is Dunkirk where the navy saved the army from complete destruction. (Hitler, being from a continental power made a mistake at Dunkirk, for a continental power, being backed to the sea is a disaster and he thought the British were finished. He left the British to stew at Dunkirk while he focused his energies southward. For a naval power, it is an opportunity and the British took it, thus saving a good portion of their expeditionary army.)

Japan had invested a lot of capital into building a navy for an epic sea battle. The army had control of the government in the 1930s and they were off on adventures in China, but the one clash they had with Russia in the 1930s proved that the Russian bear was not something they were prepared to deal with.

The Japanese navy was designed for control of the Pacific. Or at least a portion of it. And that's what they tried to do. If they hadn't been bogged down in their own Vietnam in China, the Pacific War would have been much tougher. For a naval power, controlling many small islands across a large ocean is an ideal situation. Heavily garrison the islands and the navy keeps the net intact.

The problem was Japan decided to take on the largest industrial power on the planet (the US had more than 50% of all industrial production in the world in 1940) and they were already stretched thin in China.

That said, the British would have almost certainly had a sigh of relief if the Japanese had gone north. They would have made noises of supporting the USSR and continued convoys to Murmansk, but would not have gone to war with Japan. The US may have been dragged in eventually. Roosevelt was trying to get the US into the war, though the US might have just reinforced the Philippines and left Japan alone.

Bill
[/quote]

This is pretty good - the "employee" was actually a German named Sorge who was an actual formal and paid Soviet spy and he had a ring of Japanese agents. But -

IJA WAS the "premier military service" of Japan. It was larger than the IJN, and it controlled the government. Further - it had a history of thinking of itself as a major LAND army - had defeated the Chinese and the Russians before - and believed the US Army was weak. On paper it was right - the US Army was smaller - indeed the US Army NEVER DID get bigger (IJA fielded about 150 divisions, the US Army about 100 - and both had about an equal amount in non divisional terms). The US Army was not well equipped or trained in 1941 (witness the performance in the Philippines - and to a lesser extent - in the NEI - and the NE approaches to Australia). So on that one point you somewhat lose me.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

That said, the British would have almost certainly had a sigh of relief if the Japanese had gone north. They would have made noises of supporting the USSR and continued convoys to Murmansk, but would not have gone to war with Japan. The US may have been dragged in eventually. Roosevelt was trying to get the US into the war, though the US might have just reinforced the Philippines and left Japan alone.

But when would the US and England join the fight? When do you expect or suggest them to enter the war?
Maybe because of continuing sinking of US shipping by german subs as well as attacks against Land Lease convois for russia by Japan? The Japs had showed in both the first Japanese-Chinese war of 1894-1895 and the japanese-russian war of 1904-1905 that they are willed to attack neutral shipping if it carries contraband.
There'll be several additional HRs needed but as the witp map is focussing on rather the southern than the northern area, both sides must finally go to war.

The spy you are talking about was the communist Dr. Richard Sorge. He was later hanged.

If the war in the Atlantic were enough to get the US into the war (more than it was with the USN participating in escort operations) - it would have happened. It was not enough to win a vote in Congress. For that reason FDR initiated a plan (secret via Adm Hart - commander of the Asiatic Fleet - to cause an incident - in which it could be alleged Japan had fired on "a USN warship." This would have happened well before spring 1942 - the first attempt actually occurred but no warships were sighted. Patrolling the South China Sea - the three vessels would have found such a Japanese ship or formation - probably before December ended - otherwise in Janauary - after which the war would be on. Only not in Japan's favor - on take down of air bases or sinking the battle fleet up front. Not a good deal for Japan. Japan didn't know of this plan - so that would not be a factor - but it WAS the plan of FDR - and it WAS being implemented: USS Isabel was already making patrols, USS Lanokai would have by mid December - and one more vessel a week or so later. The Allied entry into the war - in terms of most probable date - would be about 1 January - and no later than mid January- meaning the Japanese would have about 3 to 5 weeks before it occurred - and it might only be 1 or 2 weeks.

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Unless your intent is to demonstrate WHY Japanese soldiers - who controlled the regime - opted to strike South - you must choose a mod in which logistics are not a consideration (that is, you can NOT use RHS). Japan needed (and should need) to capture the SRA at least for the oil of NEI (and Brunei) - and IRL for other things (e.g. tin on Banka Island, both to use - although it is excessive to Japanese needs - and also to deny it to the Allies - who otherwise have a real problem with quantity) and similar issues. [The main source of antimony for the whole world is New Caledonia - there is but one tiny antimony mine in the USA - at Thompson Falls Montana - inadequate. Japan planned to capture New Caledonia - not only as a forward and defensable and somewhat self sustaining base to wage LOC warfare from - and not only to obtain its minerals - but to deny them to its enemies.] The strike North concept was possible in every other sense - Asiatic USSR is weak - wealthy - full of non Russians - millions of whom had moved to Manchukuo. There was a Japanese RUSSIAN brigade - led by a Russian general - that might be of some value in an invasion. But two factors were decisive: by August 1941 Japanese intelligence (which included traveling on the Trans Siberian RR) had concluded the USSR could not be defeated by Germany (even if stabbed in the back) - and Japan was on a 30 month clock re oil - the clock started running in July - and it was going to run out UNLESS oil was captured. Sakhalin does not supply enough oil to stop the clock - and the estimates turned out to be optimistic - oil was used faster than the 30 month rate.

I added a "European Russia" Base near Vladivostok. It's the price for a total victory against the siberian troops in my mod. Wheter this means a total defeat of Russia and the partition of the whole Soviet Union between Germany and Japan or just a Soviet union from the Ural to the borders of the witp-map doesn't matter. In the first case, the Axis powers have access to all ressources, in the second case Russia has to give them all they want.
This may be unrealistic, this may be false. But that doesn't matter! This mod offers a totally new experience: Both sides may reorganize themselves massivly before the war begins! The USA may send some BBs to Manila (together with a couple of LCUs), Singapoore may also have all R-Classes in addition to the Force Z - and the first strike against the Allies by Japan may be a full scale invasion of Pearl Harbour - or even the West Coast! All is possible in this mod - and that's my intention, not do to exactly historic things...

The Allies - Russia and NEI are ALREADY allies of the USSR - and the USA is ALREADY supplying substantial aid to the USSR - mainly over the route to Vladivostok (measured by weight of aid) - which cannot be done in the game (how do you stop Japan attacking it? And how do you force most of what you deliver to exit the map - to the West?). But in principle they would understand that the fall of the USSR is a big bad news bear - and not in their interest. [Fear of a separate peace was big - France already had gone that way - and Stalin was no friend of anyone and would do so if it was better for his interests.]

He would not only do so, he actually tried! It has been revealed two or three years ago by just published documents of the second world war, that Stalin did two peace offers to Germany. The first was some weeks after the beginning of Barbarossa, the second one after Operation Taifun had reached it's hight. He offered vast areas to Germany via the Bulgarians (which still had diplomatic contacts with the Soviet Union) - but Hitler rejected...

That means that the MINIMUM US response would be to send more and better aircraft to the USSR - and that at the expense of US forces. So - you can structure that into the game by changing build rates for whatever period you think this might last. But the main feature of US thinking is LOGISTIC - and the main thinking in 1941/early 1942 was to BUILD the RR to Nome - build bases in Alaska (the latter happened - the former resulted in the ALCAN in 1942 -
but it ended at Fairbanks and the RR was not built). This thinking was ended by STALIN - not the US - and IF he was in trouble - he might have said something other than "no way." The political problem for the US is - how to declare war - it is ALREADY at war in the Atlantic (or the Navy is)? Japan attacking Russia is not grounds for war. Germany would not then declare war as it did - no grounds there either. But FDR had measures to create a war in place - see The Cruise of the Lanokai - by RADM Vince Trolly - her commander. It was going to happen. But if it happens with no force headed to the oil fields - Japan is going to run out of gas (literally) by the end of 1943. So end the scenario then - and if Japan has not won - it lost.

I thought about adding a "In case of strike north" base in russian territory. This might have several AC-Factories which are all damaged and mustn't be repaired if Japan doesn't attack Russia. But the simplest solution will be to allow a fixed contingent of "volunteer units" of the USA for Russia and of British Planes for China.


The question is: When will the Allies finnaly join the fight?
I hardly believe that Churchill declares war on Japan in case of Strike North. Japan is something different than Finnland! In the case of a british declaration of war, I doubt that FDR would achieve to convince the Houses to join the British.
But if the USA declare war against Germany, I hardly believe this wouldn't also mean increased tensions in the Pacific that definitly lead to war.

What's a realistic timetable?

Both USA and GB declare war on Japan on 6/42? or maybe 1/43?

If the war in the Atlantic were enough to get the US into the war (more than it was with the USN participating in escort operations) - it would have happened. It was not enough to win a vote in Congress. For that reason FDR initiated a plan (secret via Adm Hart - commander of the Asiatic Fleet - to cause an incident - in which it could be alleged Japan had fired on "a USN warship." This would have happened well before spring 1942 - the first attempt actually occurred but no warships were sighted. Patrolling the South China Sea - the three vessels would have found such a Japanese ship or formation - probably before December ended - otherwise in Janauary - after which the war would be on. Only not in Japan's favor - on take down of air bases or sinking the battle fleet up front. Not a good deal for Japan. Japan didn't know of this plan - so that would not be a factor - but it WAS the plan of FDR - and it WAS being implemented: USS Isabel was already making patrols, USS Lanokai would have by mid December - and one more vessel a week or so later. The Allied entry into the war - in terms of most probable date - would be about 1 January - and no later than mid January- meaning the Japanese would have about 3 to 5 weeks before it occurred - and it might only be 1 or 2 weeks

Interesting! But: In case of Strike North, both airforces and the Navy would do everything to avoid any conflict with the USA. As this Idea of Strike North has already passed the line of history, I may also shape the history as it's useful for this idea.

Technical note - (as El Cid and I discussed some time ago) Setting Soviets active from the beginning does not allow the Japanese to target bases in Russia by air, except for a few specific bases.

It is better to keep the soviets off and then activate them with a HR of moving some Japanese units into the activation hex on turn 1 and then removing them. Or something similar...

Matrix have been alerted and maybe the next patch after AE is released will solve this, but by then you will probably making a new scenario for that edition.

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Technical note - (as El Cid and I discussed some time ago) Setting Soviets active from the beginning does not allow the Japanese to target bases in Russia by air, except for a few specific bases.

It is better to keep the soviets off and then activate them with a HR of moving some Japanese units into the activation hex on turn 1 and then removing them. Or something similar...

Matrix have been alerted and maybe the next patch after AE is released will solve this, but by then you will probably making a new scenario for that edition.

Is this the case in every mod?
But well, it should work if I give the soviet bases another nationality, no?

These three threads outline the problem and our testing - I think we concluded that setting the base to a different nationality did not work universally... but I cannot recall correctly now as it has been some time...

tm.asp?m=1855342
tm.asp?m=1844951
tm.asp?m=1848527

Ok, thank you!
With a paradrop on the "Eastern Europe" base, the Soviets get activated. Unfortunately, even after this, no airstrikes are possible.

If I understood it correctly, the best way is to give all russian units and bases another nationality, e.g. the chinese, right?

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Technical note - (as El Cid and I discussed some time ago) Setting Soviets active from the beginning does not allow the Japanese to target bases in Russia by air, except for a few specific bases.

It is better to keep the soviets off and then activate them with a HR of moving some Japanese units into the activation hex on turn 1 and then removing them. Or something similar...

Matrix have been alerted and maybe the next patch after AE is released will solve this, but by then you will probably making a new scenario for that edition.

Not an issue. I have a workaround which works fine. It is not good to have the Russians off - at least not good for the Russians. Just set the bases to French - and it works fine.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Technical note - (as El Cid and I discussed some time ago) Setting Soviets active from the beginning does not allow the Japanese to target bases in Russia by air, except for a few specific bases.

It is better to keep the soviets off and then activate them with a HR of moving some Japanese units into the activation hex on turn 1 and then removing them. Or something similar...

Matrix have been alerted and maybe the next patch after AE is released will solve this, but by then you will probably making a new scenario for that edition.

Is this the case in every mod?
But well, it should work if I give the soviet bases another nationality, no?

No - RHS Russian Active mods do NOT have this problem.

ORIGINAL: n01487477

These three threads outline the problem and our testing - I think we concluded that setting the base to a different nationality did not work universally... but I cannot recall correctly now as it has been some time...

tm.asp?m=1855342
tm.asp?m=1844951
tm.asp?m=1848527

This is sort of true; I don't remember the details - but I also had to change one other thing for a few Russian units to get everything to work; you can look at RHSRAO for details. I am running test games as both sides - ALL with Russians active - and there are no remaining issues.

Do only the bases or also the units have to be french?
Can the usual command still be used?

The command can be Soviet. The ships can be Soviet. Bases must be French. One kind of unit must be French - but someone has to look to see what it is? Just look at the Russian LCU in RAO.

House Rules in case of Strike North:

As Japan striked into Russia, the Allies aren't at war. Japan seeks to avoid any confrontation with the western powers. I try to create House Rules that are somehow realistic.
The Allies recieve a lot of reinforcement of every kind and have the chance to strengthen their position. It would be unrealistic to allow every reinforcement to be sent to the front. For instance, the US might send a dozend divisions to the Philippines, but is that realistic?

Therefore, the goal of the Houserules must be to allow the allies to strenthen their positions without getting totally unrealistic.

I propose what I think is fair but this is a proposal that's open for discussion:

Support for China and Russia:
In the case of an attack on Russia, both Britain and the US know, that the Axis powers will be extremely strengthen after a russian defeat. With the russian ressources, both Germany and Japan can increase the shipbuilding (the German Plan Z should be resumed after the defeat of Russia) and will make the Axis extremely dangerous.
So consequently, the Allies would increase massivle the support for the Soviets. This is the support allowed:
Supplies:
Supplies can be flown in and shipped in. According to the international rules of war, Japan is allowed to prohibit any contraband shipping to both China and Russia. So while the allies may try to ship supplies to russia, any ship sunk doing this is NO casus belli! The interception of transport planes is also allowed and no reason for war.
Aircraft:
Both the US and the British are allowed to send one third of their airgroups to China and Russia. Also, both sides may send five RAF Aviation/Aviation Rgt each to the Chinese or Russians.
Groundforces
No groundforces are allowed to be sent in for aid!

In case of a Russian or Chinese Defeat:
It is not allowed to pull out fragments into allied territory to rebuild the units!

Rules for every nation:
Stacking:
Atolls
Atolls may not contain more than two divisions plus an additional eight non infantry/tank support units (AA, Artillery, Eng) No more than one Marine CD unit per atoll.
Navy
No more than 5 ships of any type per 1 point harbour. Harbours of size 8 and bigger don't have this rule.
Airforce
No more than 50 planes per 1 point Airbase.

Fortifications:
What means "fortification level"? I think, this means the size of defensive measures.
0 means, that the soldiers don't even lie in trenches.
1 neabs trenches for the infantry, barbed wire and some tank obstacles
2 means trenches, barbed wire, tank obstacles and underground wodden bunkers (digging into ground with the walls fortified by planks)
I think that everything bigger means concrete fortifications of growing size and steel copulas.
If we look at Hong Kong and Bataan size 4, Singapoore and Pearl Harbour size 5 and Pearl Harbour size 5, it is defentily totally impossible to fortify any base within some weeks to the size of of Singapoore - even with a lot of seabees...

Consequently I would suggest the following House Rule:
Fortifying to size 2 is allowed for every base. Enlarging the fortification more is only allowed once every six month. It takes a lot of time to bring in concrete and armour plates.

Aircraft and Pilot training:
LB DB TB
The allies must avoid any provocation. They have to set all their combat airgroups to training or rest. Training throug Naval search or Supply transport isn't allowed, just the "training" function may be used!
F FB NF
Fighters may not fly more than 20% CAP as it's impossible to maintain full alert without war - and not even within war. In the case of a japanese detection outside their usual shipping lanes, the cap may be increased 10% per day. As soon as the Japanese come out of sight, it must be reduced down to 20% after five days of alert.
RC PA FP
They may do recon missions and naval search. Naval search must happen at maximum altitude with no more than 30% Naval Search!
TR
TRs can be used to send supplies into China or Russia.


DEI:
Fleet:
The Dutch fleet must stay within Dutch Waters. As the Netherlands have both big harbours and repair shipyards, they can handle their fleet alone. Of course, fleet visits were and are quite common (just look at the british cruisers in Palembang), but the Dutch fleet shouldn't do Sir Robin.
Where and how it is stationed is the choice of the player. He can also let his ships cruise near his bases, but this must be clearly within Dutch waters where no Japanese ships will appear except in case of war.

Airforce
Compareable with the Fleet. The Dutch can station their airforce at will within their territory. They may do naval search with their Patrol Airplanes but only at maximum altitude. They may upgrade at will, of course also to US types.

Groundforces
They mustn't leave DEI territory. they also shouldn't give up too much bases. I think only bases with airforce or harbour smaller than three can be given up. This means only Lombok, Pamakasan, Lombok, Benkolen, Padang, Bankha, Medan and Kuala can be given up. to strengthen other positions.


Britain/CW Forces
Fleet:
As the fleet is bigger, it gets more difficult to create HRs. The capital ships must be based in either Singapore or Tricomalee. Smaller elements (CL and smaller) can also be based in every british harbour sized 6 in the beginning, e.g. Hong Kong, Rangoon, Chittagong, Calcutta, Madras, Colombo, Bombay, Karachi.
Smaller fleet contingents (never more than 10% of each class) can do fleet visits to DEI and Australia.

Airforce
Can be stationed anwhere within British territory. The usual stacking houserule is applied here: not more than 50 planes per point Airbase size.
PAs may do naval search but only at maximum altitude to reduce the risk of attacks on shipping.

Groundforces
Non of the currently garrisoned bases must be given up. The size of allowed carrisons has to be discussed. I'd suggest four Divisions in Hong Kong and not more than three divisions in each base of northern Borneo. Malaya and Burma are free to stations as much as wanted.
Forces under Indian command mustn't leave India - nore is it allowed to change the command!
British Pacific posessions can be garrisoned with the usual stacking rules. They may also be handed over to the US (like the karibbean islands) but then only the US may garrison them.

Australia
Fleet
The Australian capital ships can be stationed in any australian port with size 6 and higher. Smaller ships can be stationed in any australian port big enough to disband them.

Airforce
Usual stacking rules. None of its territorys is allowed to be given up.

Groundforces
Non AIF forces can be stationed anywhere on Australian mainland. 20% of the non AIF forces may also be deployed in Borneo and the Solomons.
AIF foces may be used anywhere an CW/British/Australian/NZ territory.

New Zeeland
Fleet
Based within NZ territory

Airforce
Usual stacking rules and only be used within NZ territory.

Groundforces
Only to be used within NZ territory.

USA
Fleet
The US fleet has to be stationed on either Hawaii or the West Coast. One battle squadron (4 BBs+ escorts) may be stationed in Manila as soon as Manila harbour has reached size 9. No more than 30% of the US fleet is allowed to be stationed outside Hawaii and the West Coast - but 70% of the subs may be stationed at Manila.

Airforce
The airgroups may be used within their boundary of their command. Units of the "XY Pacific" command may be sent to PI. Otherwhise the usual stacking rules.

Groundforces
The Ground forces have to be used within their intended commands. Per two month, an additional Division together with 4 small support units (not more than one tank brigade, AA, artillery and Eng units) can be sent to the PI. The must come from an "XY Pacific" command.


Portuguese and French
Bases of this two nations mustn't be occupied by other nations before the war begins.



War between Japan and the Allies:
Japan may strike any time it wants.

The allies may not declare war before 8/42. The story behind this is: A german sub has sunk the CVE Long Island on patrol duty in the Atlantic. In heavy weather, it misidentified it as a british vessel. This is finally the reason for Roosevelt to declare war on Germany. As Japan ist either still on war with Russia or has already defeated it and stands beside Germany now, the war is also declared on Japan.