Page 1 of 1
Gameplay questions
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:59 pm
by klunick
Okay, I have had this game for about 3 weeks and yep, it is pretty addictive. I can win pretty easy playing CSA on normal, run the board with ironclads, etc. Yes, I do lose some territory but hey, All you have to do is play for time. This is also a problem. As the Union, I have only won once, by taking Elizabeth city in 62' and basically cutting VA off from the rest of the CSA. But I have notices do problems with gameplay or at least have some questions.
1). I have never been able to declare the EP. Even in the game I won, I only did it because I had over 1000 PP but never won a strategic victory.
2). Seems that almost all gains happen in 62'. In the last 3 games I have played as the north, I have waited 12-18 months for ACs to get initiative. What is up with this. Grant sitting around in NC for 18 months????? I also had 2 TCs in the east. What would happen? The TC would get initiative all by himself and that is it. Initiative seems to be a big issue here, especially as it seems the AI gets it almost every move. If that is the case, wouldn't that be on "Impossible" setting, not normal. I have also noticed this playing as the CSA. No matter who you play, the AI seems to get initiative much more often.
3). Battles are really warped. I have hit Fredericksbury with 50 trained units against 35 units and got my rear handed to me more than once. Casualties are about 2:1 against me. Yet when the AI does this, I get mowed over. Also, I have invaded an area, wiped with Calvary, wiped out the militia, and yet, still retreated?????
4). Casualties are all screwed or so it seems. I have Nashville or even NVA surrounded and damage a southern unit. Now in real life, they don't magically teletransport themselves back to GA or SC and come back again. They are surrounded and would have been left on the battlefield.
I have played board games all the way back in the 70's and played computer games since the early 90's and something just isn't right here.
RE: Gameplay questions
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:55 pm
by Joel Billings
ORIGINAL: klunick
Okay, I have had this game for about 3 weeks and yep, it is pretty addictive. I can win pretty easy playing CSA on normal, run the board with ironclads, etc. Yes, I do lose some territory but hey, All you have to do is play for time. This is also a problem. As the Union, I have only won once, by taking Elizabeth city in 62' and basically cutting VA off from the rest of the CSA. But I have notices do problems with gameplay or at least have some questions.
1). I have never been able to declare the EP. Even in the game I won, I only did it because I had over 1000 PP but never won a strategic victory.
You never won an SV? If the smaller force has at least 30 units in the area you will get credit for an SV if you make the enemy retreat (there is a chance for an SV if between 20 and 30 units). Are you not winning the big battles, or are you not fighting big battles?
2). Seems that almost all gains happen in 62'. In the last 3 games I have played as the north, I have waited 12-18 months for ACs to get initiative. What is up with this. Grant sitting around in NC for 18 months????? I also had 2 TCs in the east. What would happen? The TC would get initiative all by himself and that is it. Initiative seems to be a big issue here, especially as it seems the AI gets it almost every move. If that is the case, wouldn't that be on "Impossible" setting, not normal. I have also noticed this playing as the CSA. No matter who you play, the AI seems to get initiative much more often.
Initiative is the key. Do you have at least 1 depot in areas with your AC? If you are facing enemy cav raids, you need cavalry with your army to protect your depots, and probably 2-3 depots in the area. Depots are critical as they greatly increase the chance for initiative. In winter, initiative is tough, but in non-winter turns, Grant with a depot that hasn't been raided has about a 65% chance to get initiative even if his TC doesn't get it, and if he is within range of the TC, and his TC gets it, his chance can go up to 92%. Using historical leaders and with a depot, Grant should not be waiting long to get initiative. Picking TCs that are likely to get initiative can help a lot.
3). Battles are really warped. I have hit Fredericksbury with 50 trained units against 35 units and got my rear handed to me more than once. Casualties are about 2:1 against me. Yet when the AI does this, I get mowed over. Also, I have invaded an area, wiped with Calvary, wiped out the militia, and yet, still retreated?????
Are you fully scouting areas before you attack? Not scouting enough is the most common mistake by new players. Scouting is crititcal, or the enemy units can get very big surprise bonuses in combat. Usually, combat success is all about scouting, leadership (having good skill leaders), and unit training (i.e. not using militia in combat). There are other factors that can come into play, but scouting and leadership quality are huge. As for wiping ou the enemy. Remember that damaged units count in calculating remaining forces when determining the victor of a battle. Although damaged units count for less, a damaged unit in a level 2 fort is worth many undamaged attacking units. That's how you can wipe out the defender and still lose the battle, because they weren't really wiped out, they were just damaged.
4). Casualties are all screwed or so it seems. I have Nashville or even NVA surrounded and damage a southern unit. Now in real life, they don't magically teletransport themselves back to GA or SC and come back again. They are surrounded and would have been left on the battlefield.
There can be some very big casualty disparities, although once accounting for scouting, leadership, and other combat bonuses, usually these can be explained. Remember the "battle" actually represents a month of campaigning and can actually be many engagements. Sometimes, as at Harper's Ferry or at Fort Donelson, a large force can be cut off and forced to surrender, making the losses seem very uneven. I am not aware of cut off units being able to get away to other states for repair. I didn't think that happened. If you've got a save for a clear case of this happening, please send it with the details to 2by3@2by3games.com. There may be a reason for this in the game that I'm forgetting, but I agree if it's happening it doesn't sound right.
I have played board games all the way back in the 70's and played computer games since the early 90's and something just isn't right here.
RE: Gameplay questions
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:51 am
by Doc o War
klunick- read back through all the forum threads here- and the tips- new players have a big learning curve in this system- it takes a lot of factors working together to make combat work in this system- were your guys supplied?- did you scout? what leadership bonuses did you get?-were the rail lines into your start area damaged? Did the enemy raid your depots? Try looking at the replays and scroll down the combat lists and read the actual stats in each combat- look at all the adds and subtracts from each combat- they are real eye openers.
As Joel said- these are month long campaign turns- the battles you see played out are the various units in a 25 mile region clashing and maneuvering and chewing each other up day after day.
RE: Gameplay questions
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:46 pm
by klunick
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
ORIGINAL: klunick
Okay, I have had this game for about 3 weeks and yep, it is pretty addictive. I can win pretty easy playing CSA on normal, run the board with ironclads, etc. Yes, I do lose some territory but hey, All you have to do is play for time. This is also a problem. As the Union, I have only won once, by taking Elizabeth city in 62' and basically cutting VA off from the rest of the CSA. But I have notices do problems with gameplay or at least have some questions.
1). I have never been able to declare the EP. Even in the game I won, I only did it because I had over 1000 PP but never won a strategic victory.
You never won an SV? If the smaller force has at least 30 units in the area you will get credit for an SV if you make the enemy retreat (there is a chance for an SV if between 20 and 30 units). Are you not winning the big battles, or are you not fighting big battles?
[font="Times New Roman"]Well, I finally have been able to declare EP in two games. It appears the trick to declaring it early on is to let the south invade Kentucky. That way as the union you are not penalized the 100-60 points when you do enter. An additional benefit in one game is that Kentucky went with the Union right off the bat and then I was not required to maintain troops in any of the retaken regions. It should also be noted that I actually have kicked the south out faster this way then if I had initially invaded. No I did not say I have never won SV, but, early on due to troop training and a lack of troops on one side or the other, it is pretty difficult to get SV. Even the north only has so many units and you either have the Humbolt region where the south has those type of numbers or Virginia.[/font]
2). Seems that almost all gains happen in 62'. In the last 3 games I have played as the north, I have waited 12-18 months for ACs to get initiative. What is up with this. Grant sitting around in NC for 18 months????? I also had 2 TCs in the east. What would happen? The TC would get initiative all by himself and that is it. Initiative seems to be a big issue here, especially as it seems the AI gets it almost every move. If that is the case, wouldn't that be on "Impossible" setting, not normal. I have also noticed this playing as the CSA. No matter who you play, the AI seems to get initiative much more often.
Initiative is the key. Do you have at least 1 depot in areas with your AC? If you are facing enemy cav raids, you need cavalry with your army to protect your depots, and probably 2-3 depots in the area. Depots are critical as they greatly increase the chance for initiative. In winter, initiative is tough, but in non-winter turns, Grant with a depot that hasn't been raided has about a 65% chance to get initiative even if his TC doesn't get it, and if he is within range of the TC, and his TC gets it, his chance can go up to 92%. Using historical leaders and with a depot, Grant should not be waiting long to get initiative. Picking TCs that are likely to get initiative can help a lot.
[font="Times New Roman"]Yep, still having these issues with Initiative. 63 just seems to be a bummer of a year. Usually there is no attacking due to initiative until April or even May. I have Halleck as a TC and Grant as an AC. I have seen Halleck get initiative all by himself and the other clown nothing. Grant has also gotten it, yet everyone in his stack has zip. These guys are sitting on depots too as the north has little problem building them.[/font]
3). Battles are really warped. I have hit Fredericksbury with 50 trained units against 35 units and got my rear handed to me more than once. Casualties are about 2:1 against me. Yet when the AI does this, I get mowed over. Also, I have invaded an area, wiped with Calvary, wiped out the militia, and yet, still retreated?????
Are you fully scouting areas before you attack? Not scouting enough is the most common mistake by new players. Scouting is crititcal, or the enemy units can get very big surprise bonuses in combat. Usually, combat success is all about scouting, leadership (having good skill leaders), and unit training (i.e. not using militia in combat). There are other factors that can come into play, but scouting and leadership quality are huge. As for wiping ou the enemy. Remember that damaged units count in calculating remaining forces when determining the victor of a battle. Although damaged units count for less, a damaged unit in a level 2 fort is worth many undamaged attacking units. That's how you can wipe out the defender and still lose the battle, because they weren't really wiped out, they were just damaged.
[font="Times New Roman"]Scouting seems to be a personal problem with me. I just don't see the value to it and it is not explained well in the manual. I understand you don't want to be surprised by a large stack or the know your enemy theory prior to battle, but with FOW on, I see the enemy has 15 units in a region. I have scouted it with up to 6 calvary(of course they have calvary screening too) and I don't seem to learn hoot. Then when I hit the enemy I find out they 45 units in there.[/font]
4). Casualties are all screwed or so it seems. I have Nashville or even NVA surrounded and damage a southern unit. Now in real life, they don't magically teletransport themselves back to GA or SC and come back again. They are surrounded and would have been left on the battlefield.
There can be some very big casualty disparities, although once accounting for scouting, leadership, and other combat bonuses, usually these can be explained. Remember the "battle" actually represents a month of campaigning and can actually be many engagements. Sometimes, as at Harper's Ferry or at Fort Donelson, a large force can be cut off and forced to surrender, making the losses seem very uneven. I am not aware of cut off units being able to get away to other states for repair. I didn't think that happened. If you've got a save for a clear case of this happening, please send it with the details to 2by3@2by3games.com. There may be a reason for this in the game that I'm forgetting, but I agree if it's happening it doesn't sound right.
[font="Times New Roman"]Perhaps it is the way things are reported in the battle reports that has me confused. I just want to be sure that if I have the Nashville area cut off by land and with gunboats on the Tennessee river, when I hit Nashville, it might come back and tell me 5 Confederate infantry damaged, X destroyed. So you are saying the cut off damaged units don't end up in Alabama getting repaired. I have no proof they do. I just want to be sure. It should report them as damaged and captured.[/font]
I have played board games all the way back in the 70's and played computer games since the early 90's and something just isn't right here.
RE: Gameplay questions
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:19 am
by Doc o War
Klunick- the regions are 40 miles across- the time is a month- even in the real war cut off surrounded units sometimes got out- like N. Forrest out of Ft Donelson in 62. Also its a month long turn.
The big thing with scouting is if you are fighting an unscouted unit they get wicked attack and defense modiers- scroll over a battle report some time and look at all the modifiers that impact the combat. Scouting is a huge impact on the tactical battle- you want to see every enemy unit you can in a region if you are going to attack- plus your scouting leaves a scouted zone and reinforcements entering the region for combat may get scouted also.
Look at all the combat modifiers- you will quickly see why one unit was devastaed in the combat. Were you attacking with Militia? Were they all in supply? Remember supply dumps do not share supply with the units they are stacked with normally, they represent the supplies the army has to stockpile go on an offesive-(at one battle in 1863 an army commander shot up all his onboard unit supply fire loads- nearly half a million rounds of ammo in two days of fighting- and requested 300 more wagon loads of ammo just so he could fight the next day. A corps artillery battalion could fire all its basic load of ammo in a few hours. Modern war demands supply dumps.)
- Supply comes down the pipeline. Are the railroads in repair or damaged? All sorts of modifiers to look at. An unsupplied unit fights poorly.
All these casualties are really the attrition of the combats, there could be several battles in the same region- or one battle that lasted days- or a week of moving and monor engagements followed by nothing- followed by a big battle at the end of the month- but all in that month in that region. The casualties are the agregate damage. - it effects the force pools as the system tries to pump replacements out to rebuild the freshly shattered armies-
The Civil War was the first real Industrial Age War- -discounting some of the 1850s wars in Europe. National armies were raised within the nation states and the manpower of the nation was harnessed to feed in replacements- campaigns would continue on month after month-eventually year after bloody year, the armies fed ever more men and material- until one side breaks.
This became the way of war and WW1 was the next bigger test of this. So much of the beginning of WW1 was a continuation of the end of the Civil War-A massive war of Attrition between competeing industrial nations- Trenches- the breech loading weapons, shell Field cannons- air observation- machine guns- telegraphs and railroads - naval battleships made of iron and later steel. Modern field armies fielded as whole self sustaining components directed by general staffs across large regions. It all started with 1861, at Bull Run when two heavily armed mobs attacked each other .