Matrix Games Forums

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

I'd get rid of the transport and allow the fleets (heavies, I guess, if we have light and heavies) to carry a full corps as per the original game. The transport fleets are not useful as they have the 3 MP limit and are a liability in regards to PP. There is no reason why a fleet could not transport an army more than 3 areas... been so since the days of the Pharohs...

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.

They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.

They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!

Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?

I like new fleets. I invaded Sardinia with a light fleet.  There is a formula for transporting in the rules. CAV eats up transport capacity. My TRNS have zipped frrom N. Sea to Med and back. it's purely an adapt and improvise situation. Merchants did about 8kn, Warships around 13kn Frigates, 9-10kn for SOL

I think the problem is not so much that the transports were added (though I agree they are rather silly) as that the capabilities of the regular fleets were diminished. In the boardgame, you could carry one corps per fleet iirc, whereas now you are limited to a certain number of infantry etc. per fleet factor.

I think that is partly justified since it is silly to be able to carry a full corps on a 1-factor fleet. A pro-rated system makes sense to me.

However, it doesn't work well as is, because no matter how many ships you have you can never carry a full French corps (or some of the larger Prussian corps) without transports, because they have too many factors to go on even a full heavy fleet. Light fleets can technically be used for transport, but in reality they're worthless because they can't carry even the littlest British corps. If you're going to have a factors-per-ship rule, you should be able to combine fleets for transport, so that (for instance) 31 heavies in two fleets could carry the French I corps. Then even light fleets could have some purpose if you stacked enough of them together.

I can see that there might be some coding difficulties involved, but surely some form of stacking-for-transport could be implemented.

Hi Guys,
I have to get involved with this debate, it's naval it is my domain! The problem with the Transports is there movement restriction of 3MP, this is wrong they should have the same movement as the heavy & light fleets 7MP all ships depend on the wind for movement, no wind = no movement,so light to moderate winds has very little advantage for light frigates compared to heavies and transports.
The heavy and light ships moved at the same speed as the merchant transports in convoy to protect the merchant ships,they left port together and they arrived at there destination together.What is good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak, the transports or merchants call them what you like are vital, they are cheaper to build,they can be used as a depot for supplys and they carried more men & horses.
I see no reason why a transport fleet could not be 50 in size,more than enough to carry even the largest corps? I mean there were thousands of these ships built in this period in time. So removing there movement restriction and increasing there fleet size makes them a more useful addition to this game.

Ok! I will explain the purpose of the transports / merchants in todays terms TRADE. If you have no merchant marine the world would grind to a halt fact, the world relies on merchant ships for trade with other countries the cars we use today depend on the super tankers carring the oil to the refineries, if there are no merchant ships then there is no reason for a navy to protect them.

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

I'd get rid of the transport and allow the fleets (heavies, I guess, if we have light and heavies) to carry a full corps as per the original game. The transport fleets are not useful as they have the 3 MP limit and are a liability in regards to PP. There is no reason why a fleet could not transport an army more than 3 areas... been so since the days of the Pharohs...

Yo this is a first for me I disagree with Mardonius! The reason why the transports are not useful in the game is because of there movement restriction 3 MP, answer remove the restriction and make them the same as the heavies and lights 7 MP. Also if you increase there fleet size to 50 they will be able to carry even the largest CORPS! These 2 simple steps make them very useful in the game yes / no mhhhh?

The Transport fleet size is something like 127 max ship factors in each already so thats done.  But as for the 3 movement, I have just learned to use that and count that as the balancing for the extra capacity of them.  Take the Turkish for instance, the fleet of 12 can carry one corps either a stripped down jannisary or an (inf only) nizami, or 1 infantry feudal where the transport can take ANY corps, or even 2 feudals EASILY from greece to Cyrenica, and is perfect for bouncing 2 feudals around for the conquest of N. Africa and even to Naples on turn 1.  The only problem I have with the transports is that the troops can not stay on the transport while at sea over the turn.  This is what limits the movement to going along ports or sea invasion areas then reloading again in the next port to go again.  But, the transport works great as a mobile invasion supply for an even larger army marching along the N. African coast from Egypt all the way to Morocco as long as they stay near the water.  The worst thing is protecting them with the smaller combat fleets.  Maybe we could even think about making more than just 1 fleet marker per major power of transports as all of the transport ships of a nation do not usually go to and from the same place at the same time...

Hi obsdiandragon,
I see no reason why transports should be restricted to 3MP, they can carry more than enough food and water for the Infantry & horses on board for longer voyages at sea, so the game restriction of 3 MP is unjustified and has no logic behind it. Some of the transports only carried food and water on board for that very reason,so as to sustain the fleet for longer periods at sea so 7 MP should be implemented soon as possible. The stupid rule of transports having to unload and reload in 1 turn is not needed and should be removed,transports are not any different than heavies or lights.

Also your point of more than 1 fleet is valid as you should be able to land Infantry etc to more than one destination point.

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I think that is partly justified since it is silly to be able to carry a full corps on a 1-factor fleet. A pro-rated system makes sense to me.

Nathan:
In the older system, the fleets abstracted the nation's merchants fleets. So the "1" factor fleet is representing a merchant/transport fleet as well. Works well in that a merchant fleet capacity can not be destroyed.

Graham:

If you have the Heavy Fleets be able to transport a corps (of any size) you get rid of any need for a transport fleet counter. Think of the multiple ports that Napoleon's expedition to Egypt (and Malta) came out of and you will see how the abstraction works well. This is how it was in the original game and it worked well as there was alwasy the potential of a naval action/invasion.

best
Varick

Law of unintended consequences.

The Rules As Written requires players to think and discourage typical gamesmanship wargamers use. Merchant ships actually have to go merchanting. The reduced speed reflects that ships are not always available, becalming, storms and bad weather restrict their use. Merchants have skeleton crews and are inefficient to keep costs down. They lose speed in convoy. They can't move 360 degrees as they can not sail into the wind. They lose speed when tacking, wearing, and when not receiving wind at rearward angle. They do maneuvers slowly not drilled as in navies who view merchants as 'lubberly.' Wargamers insist on maximum performance yet history shows otherwise. Like Guadalcanal players have 18 ships so dispatch 18 ships yet historically sent 5. History is replete with real lifers never maximizing assets and wargamers always do unless rules stop them. Take SPI's War Between The States. US would load a corps on a train and leave them there for weeks until needed and then zip the entrained mobile reserve unit to the front when needed. Lincoln never thought of that, but by god gamers sure did. Units are staffed with real people not cardboard or pixels.

Hey Folks,
My point is the 3 MP is wrong, Britain sent Infantry to garrison the penial colonys in Australia, it was a long voyage and they did not disembark untill they reached Aus.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.

They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!

Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?

Transports were a part of the original requirement in the game BUT I am uncertain as to why we placed "3" move points??? I can move these back to 7 if this would help???

Hi Mardonius,
Nappy made a few stop along the way to Egypt, Mainly to pick up additional ships and Infantry that were in that part of Europe, If all his forces had been available to him from his initial port of departure, there would have been no need for him to stop at ports along the way, he could have sailed from France - Egypt none stop.

Hi Marshall,
Can we alter the 3 MP allowance via the editor, if so problem solved already then players who want to can change it to 7 MP for Transports. I just want to be able to alter the game to suit me since in the end it's me who will be playing against the AI.

Hey I don't need a history lesson on the sailing quailities of different ship types, no 2 ships are the same period ! some heavies were quicker than frigates and some merchants could out sail a heavy.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis




They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!

Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?

Transports were a part of the original requirement in the game BUT I am uncertain as to why we placed "3" move points??? I can move these back to 7 if this would help???

Immensely! Better yet, since some seem to really like it make it an option: "Limited Transport Fleet Movement" On/Off?

I disagree that the Transport fleet is good for attacking N Africa. Turkey should be able to move back and forth from Const. to Egypt and the Trans fleet is unable to do so.

Also, I don't really care about historical aspects of the game at least not in a "strict" sense. I care about playability and right now I have a counter I have rarely used in any of my games because it is almost seemingly useless.

I'm not against Heavies or Light fleets transporting any size of Corps, but the transports are cheaper and quicker to build, I'm hoping I might be able to implement various option via the editor, there is no logical reason to restrict the transports to 3 MP and for having them unload and reload is a farce, I have never played the game untill this version appeared, so I have no prior knowledge of what went before. As for heavies I think that I read somewhere that original rules listed them as 50 guns I could be wrong don't know, but if not then the original rules were crap in my opinion.

Does anyone know were I can get a copy of the original rules for this game, I'm interested in reading them so that I can get a better picture of the difference between the original and this pc version?