Matrix Games Forums

It seems an already German favored game gets even a further boost in the 3.2 upgrade. Does anyone fittle with "production wars". Thats where you play yourself, don't move troops, and see where production levels would be in 3, 6 or 12 months later...My first number is what the game produced, the second is historical. Oct. 5, 1941, PzII 13 (7), Pz38 14 (9), PzIII 63 (26), PzIV 30 (12), Stug III 23 (12), Pzjg I 14 (0). And gets nothing but worse. Soviet levels are closer, T-60 62 (80), T-34 89 (120), Kv's 13 (40). Anyone wonder where the KV 1 factories went?...German production should have lock on it, where a factory has a 1 in 12 chance of growing ( 8%) until the end of 1942. After that allow a 2/3 chance ( 67%) of a factory growing. The opposite shoud occur for the Soviets, thier war production grew by 600% until the end of 1942, then leveled off...A factories production limit, should be limited by the cost of the unit. Give a factory 90 resource points, if your producing an item costing 3 points, then up to 30 can be produced there. An item costing 9 could produce up to 10...With the production levels as is, most good German players recover from the harsh winter with a greater armor force than they invaded with.

Jon

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
It seems an already German favored game gets even a further boost in the 3.2 upgrade. Does anyone fittle with "production wars". Thats where you play yourself, don't move troops, and see where production levels would be in 3, 6 or 12 months later...My first number is what the game produced, the second is historical. Oct. 5, 1941, PzII 13 (7), Pz38 14 (9), PzIII 63 (26), PzIV 30 (12), Stug III 23 (12), Pzjg I 14 (0). And gets nothing but worse. Soviet levels are closer, T-60 62 (80), T-34 89 (120), Kv's 13 (40). Anyone wonder where the KV 1 factories went?...German production should have lock on it, where a factory has a 1 in 12 chance of growing ( 8%) until the end of 1942. After that allow a 2/3 chance ( 67%) of a factory growing. The opposite shoud occur for the Soviets, thier war production grew by 600% until the end of 1942, then leveled off...A factories production limit, should be limited by the cost of the unit. Give a factory 90 resource points, if your producing an item costing 3 points, then up to 30 can be produced there. An item costing 9 could produce up to 10...With the production levels as is, most good German players recover from the harsh winter with a greater armor force than they invaded with.

Jon

Jon

Right you are.

The 1st is from an Alt R of a standard '41 (possum) 6/june/41 start turn.
Tanks On map in pool total
Total 6037 992 7029

This one is from the lattest 25/1/42 turn (middle of blizzard)
Total 7350 1077 8427

I'm already 1300 tanks ahead and expect the total on map to be about 9500 by the start of summer '42.

Loki

Hello All.
Production figures for a Test game I'm running at the present.
1-Nov-41
Soviet
T-60 = 52 per week (2 factories )
T-25 M39E = 0 per week, converted to T-34 M41
T-50 = 8 per week
T-34 M41 = 186 per week ( 11 factories )
KV-1 M41 = 38 per week ( 3 factories )
KV-1E = 35 per week ( 3 factories )
Matilda = 14 per week
Valentine = 13 per week
ZiS-30 = 22 per week

Axis
Pz-IIf = 28 per week (2 factories )
Pz-38(t)e = 17 per week
Pz-IIIh = 12 per week
Pz-IIIj = 43 per week (3 factories)
Pz-IVe = 26 per week (2 factories )
Stug-IIIb = 30 per week (2 factories )
PzJg-1b = 29 per week (2 factories)
M-13/40 = 18 per week (2 factories)
L-6/40 = 8 per week

Hmm. So perhaps I should delete half of the Axis factories, 2 of the KV-1 factories,and alter one of the T-34 M41 factories to T-60?

Possum, you can find some good info on Soviet armor production and factory locations at onwar.com

good try possum. at least you are trying to make it historical. dropping production costs of t34s could allow production to be ramped up within the game.
Is that version 5? It looks very interesting in what is being produced.

Matt

Hey Possum, is that your name? Is there someway to program German growth to be slower? The game starts out pretty close, but German growth gets way out of hand. Also, I think Matt has a good idea about lowering the cost of the T-34....Another note, you did a great job on your map. Is there a reason Hoth's Pz Korp are behind his Inf. Korp? Were Kliest's Pz Div's really held in reserve?....Did you get a chance to view Onwar.com? You'll find alot of production quirks, such as they never produced Jgpz I's. They converted 400 of them, the last in Feb 41. So why is there a factory producing them? And many, many more.

Jon

Hello Die Kriegerin.
Some answers
Possum is my nickname.
No it's not possible to greatly slow down the factory growth without hacking the executable.
I'm currently experimenting with altering the production costs to see if that is effective in slowing things down.
The placement of the Pz korps is taken from the 1941 site tactical maps, and according to them, quite a few of the Panzer korps started behind the Infantry. The Doctorine at the time, I beleive, was to conduct the initial assault with Infantry to clear the border fortifications, and only then turn the Panzer's loose.
Yes I did visit onwar.com, but my computer hates it, it keeps freezing, and doing other strange things while I'm visiting.

Hey Possum, I seem to remember that heavy industry is tied into growth. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If your H/I level is 80 your economy grows by 80% annually. So, If this is true, couldn't we start the German H/I level at around 10, until Dec. 42, then add 80 or so H/I points, to simulate the switch to wartime economy.

Jon

Originally posted by Possum
The placement of the Pz korps is taken from the 1941 site tactical maps, and according to them, quite a few of the Panzer korps started behind the Infantry. The Doctorine at the time, I beleive, was to conduct the initial assault with Infantry to clear the border fortifications, and only then turn the Panzer's loose.

Possum
Quite right (i.e. look at http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/hobbies/pzattk.txt ) but that's tactical level as you already mentioned. On operational level I think it's not correct. Because the PzKps needs obviously 1/5 of all the movement it can do in a week to get to the front line. And in WIR it has to wait (by a 0 plot) until the Infkps has moved (if it won't be moved back in march mode which would be against the initial intention), so it's in fact 2/5. That's too much IMO and definitely no more tactical leveled.
Nevertheless this point is just a detail. You've done a great job and one always finds something...

Dave

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
Hey Possum, I seem to remember that heavy industry is tied into growth. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If your H/I level is 80 your economy grows by 80% annually. So, If this is true, couldn't we start the German H/I level at around 10, until Dec. 42, then add 80 or so H/I points, to simulate the switch to wartime economy.

Jon

The chance of any individual factory growing is related to the total HI and resources for the side. I am not sure of the exact formula, but it is probably something like (HI + resources)/2/cost in some way. However, it is fairly rapid as long as the factory size is still less than something like 75/cost. This is a good idea, but it may have a severe impact on operations points, which according to the manual are also related to HI. Still, something like that may work fairly well, if the growth slows down enough to matter.