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Treaty Problems???
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:42 pm
by barbarossa2
It is January 1805 and Sweden offers the following treaty to Prussia and France. At the time, Sweden is allies with France and at war with Prussia. But in this same turn, Sweden offers a cease fire to Prussia.
The full terms of the treaty are as follows:
1. Sweden agrees to allow all units controlled by Prussia free passage through all of her provences...
2. Prussia agrees to allow all units controlled by Sweden free passage through all of her provences...
3. France agrees to allow all units controlled by Prussia free passage through all of her provences...
4. Prussia agrees to allow all units controlled by France free passage through all of her provences...
5. A Royal Wedding is arranged between France and Sweden
6. A Royal Wedding is arranged between Sweden and Prussia
7. A Royal Wedding is arranged between France and Prussia
8. Sweden agrees to maintain peace with France
9. France agrees to maintain peace with Sweden
10. France agrees to maintain peace with Prussia
11. Prussia agrees to maintain peace with France
12. Prussia agrees to maintain peace with Sweden
13. Sweden agrees to maintain peace with Prussia

RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:44 pm
by barbarossa2
In the following turn, news is received by Sweden that the offer of peace to Prussia by Sweden has been rejected and the following message appears in the Treaty turn reports for Sweden as well...

RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:47 pm
by barbarossa2
It appears that we broke royal relations, even though we didn't get around to having any, because the treaty was never signed.
Additionally, I think it would be nice on the diplomacy portion of the events screen, it would be handy to show who has "royal relations" and who doesn't. Does anyone know if you can only have one royal marriage between powers at any time? Does it help to arrange a second or third marriage with any given power?
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:48 pm
by barbarossa2
Don't know what happened, but I didn't intend to post anything here in this space.
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:53 pm
by Joram
Interesting, but no idea. Is this multi-player or single-player?
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:00 pm
by barbarossa2
It's an 8 player PBEM game.
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:07 pm
by barbarossa2
Another POSSIBILITY is that after Sweden offered it, France and Prussia accepted it and the treaty was "official". However, the state of continuing war between Sweden and Prussia immediately broke the treaty (I believe wars always break all treaties between warring nations????).
I will ask France and Prussia if they remember ratifying the treaty during the January turn. If they did, I didn't get any notice that it was (I don't believe). Let me check.
When I proposed this, I assumed that the "peace" clauses would force us to peace if everyone ratified it (if a state of war existed between any of us). IF it was fully ratified by all parties, apparently, the treaty doesn't force a peace? And the existing state of war between Prussia and Sweden kicked the whole treaty out?
The only way I can make sense of it is:
1. I proposed the treaty in a state of war with Prussia
2. France and Prussia ratified it (while a state of war existed between Prussia and Sweden)
3. The state of war between Sweden and Prussia cancelled the treaty immediately
4. The royal marriages which had been carried out were also cancelled.
If this is the case, it might be handy to allow the signing of a treaty with a peace term in it to force a peace? Or? Should it be absolutely required for a nation to be at peace before proposing a treaty to its enemies? I think a system in which enemies could propose treaties to their enemies during a state of war would be useful, and realistic.
However, even if the treaty didn't force a state of peace, France and Sweden should not have had their brand new "royal marriages" which lasted for 10 seconds cancelled since France and Sweden stayed at peace (I don't know if this caused a Glory penalty or not...it would be handy to have a Glory penalty tracker for trouble shooting).
-B2
P.S. What is important now, is for me to find out if France and Prussia both ratified.

RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:13 pm
by IronWarrior
France ratified, and also took a (another) Glory penalty hit. Actually 2 hits to be more precise. Can load up a screenshot if you like.
(This is on top of the -120 GP's I'm losing every turn from Austria not complying with Terms of Surrender [:D] ) Perhaps if I force Turkey to surrender I can lose another -100 GP per turn. Looks like France's Glory will go negative this next turn anyway. [;)]
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:27 pm
by Mus
Thats bizarre. I would think the "maintain peace" clauses would have canceled the war if ratified? If they dont have that effect they certainly should be given a "white peace" type effect. Either that or peace clauses should be introduced to allow us to propose peace along with other conditions.
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:47 pm
by Joram
I thought so as that's something that I have never seen in SP. I am wondering if there is a sequence issue myself. Might need a save but will bring it to their attention nonetheless.
RE: Anyone want to help me understand these treaty issues?
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:27 pm
by barbarossa2
I just found out that France accepted and Prussia rejected the treaty proposal.
Now I need to find out whether Prussia tried to accept my cease fire proposal or not.