Matrix Games Forums

Watched a current video yesterday... "The Last Castle" (highly recommend it to viewers).

But one aspect of the film made me think. And I have to admit it made me a bit uneasy.

The prison warden has this nice collection of war artifacts (like we all do I suspect). He gets a new prisoner in. Its a famous general. He wanted him to sign a book....right up till he over hears the general make a remark to a guard that was with him while the warden was out of the room.

Essentially....no veteran (by vet I mean a man that has seen war's ugly face), would really indulge what we ourselves often casually indulge.

I must say I sleep better knowing I have never heard the screams of my dying buddies. I haven't got the smell of the dead haunting me either. I have not experienced war's ugly side. It's why I cry so much on rememberance day. I thank god some one else went through that hell for me.

So what I am saying here is this. Just what does everyone here think of our interest in war? How do you personally justify your own interest? I myself have no easy answers.

I do get annoyed at a local friend though, that attempts to tell me its ok to kill people in a "non historical" game because they are not "real people". But that I am sick for enjoying playing Steel Panthers, because thats real people I am simulating.
Personally I think he is a great deal more dangerous than me. He has made death just a game, where at least I am acutely aware of the suffering that went into the event depicted.

But do either me or my friend really have something wrong with us? That's the question that means something to me.

Please guys, only seriously thought out comments here.

I think of SPWAW as a form of chess: moving certain 'pieces' to strategic positions. When a unit gets taken out I see it as a piece removed from the board. I think (hope) no one here envisions actual human suffering while playing.

I had 3 uncles fight in the war (my dad was only 8 at the time) and all were wounded. I listened to enough of their stories to know it wasn't a game.

...speaking as a citizen of a nation that hasn't experienced the horrors of war first-hand in almost 200 years...

I'm generally interested in organisation theories (and management), as well in technical matters. What's interesting (if that's the word to use) about war to me, is how all small parts make up the sum. And by parts I mean units - from armies down to the indivdual soldier. All these parts strive, together yet alone, to achieve a common goal - to beat the enemy. The interaction between units, intentional and unintentional is fascinating. As for the technical part - war brings out the most extreme machinery there is. This in combination with the "mechanics" of the military organisation, to make the best things there are (men and machines), also intrigues me.

It all comes down to this: Why did one side win, and one side lose(sic!)?

Playing SP:WAW makes me understand more, as so much is taken into consideration to make it all as accurate as can be.

Les, I refer you to a thread I started a while back on this very subject: showthread.php?threadid=13578

Struggle & Competition is basic human nature. There are about five basic needs (food, shelter, companionship, love, and fulfilment) for humans and the one that is most previlent and the most difficult to achieve is fulfilment. Food and shelter are easily obtained by most. Love and companionship can be obtained from pets. Fulfilment on the otherhand is something that can only be obtained by struggle and competition. Here is where people in general tend to diversify. Some seek fulfilment through building a buisness, others develop their career, some with sports, others persue hobbies or games. I have noticed in my short life that people tend to focus their time and energies in the area that they find that they are good at and have a natural inclination or ability in. While holding the other areas in contempt or dismiss it as unimportant. This I feel this is natural as it allows humans in general to rationalize why doing what they have done is ok.

With that said, you, like myself find that you are good at computer war games and find fulfilment in the strugle and competition of playing them. This is speculation but I believe it is sound reasoning on my part.

As far as do you and your friend have something wrong with you, well if you play SPWAW to the point where you neglect your friends and loved ones you should consider that question stongly. But otherwise enjoy your gaming experience.

The US has a long tradition of citizen soldiers. The more citizens know about war, the better informed they are of it, the better they can exercise their citizenship duties as to controlling the government that makes war.

Hello Sir,

i feel very much the same way!!!

i was always interested in war.

war on sea,land ,air

why this interest i must ask
myself ???


war is bad and evil
(in most cases!!)

but in my case it´s more
the technical and strategic
sides of war,i´m interested in
not killing....

last month i had a car car accident
where a woman was hurt badly
by my car. after the shock i was thinking
of the millions of victims of war.
even more badly injured than that
woman or killed.

do you think it´s a question of personal
morale playing such games???

it´s no easy question......

Les the Sarge 9-1,

Wow, you sure can make a person think! I agree with several of the guys when they say that the challange of the game, the competition, and the exitement are what we play for.

Is there something more than that? I think yes. World War II touched every American life at the time, and we all have someone that we know that was there . For me it was my grandfather and his brother fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Or my good friend's grandfather who flew bomber's over Europe, or my wife's grandfather who flew there also, or my coworker who was a boy in Italy at the time, or my.... You see?

Unlike tracer (and I am NOT putting you down, tracer), when I am putting units into a hot zone during a game, I think, Lord I had better pull them outta there! Not because I will lose them, or because they are 'men'. There is just something that makes me do it.

Tom Hanks said "They did nothing less than save the world" about our soldiers in the war. They did! But any soldier that fought for something he believed in, that faced the things you described, was more of a man than I think I could have been. This applies to any conflict throughout history. "A spear in the gut? Not for me, thanks. A firing line at fifty yards against the Rebs? Count me out. Jump out of this airplane, in the dark, and find the Enemy? Lock me in the stockade. Make my way across THAT beach, through whats left of my comrades, to get CLOSER to that Machinegun? No effing way!"

The guys that did it say they did what they had to do. Could I have?

Goblin

PS- This is one of the best questions I've seen in a thread, and I've rated it 5 stars.

It's a thinking persons game such as already mentioned chess. Because many of the battles are attempted to depict historical battles as best as possible. We as the battlefield general get to try our hand as a micro-manager to see where others have failed. Unlike other games were you rush in with a full force and try to destroy every thing in your way, you have to carefully plot your entrance and sometimes exit if you plan on being around for the next battle. One other reason it's free and Matrix's dedication and help including the gamers forums are second to none. Just an unbiased opinion.

Sarge,

As a fellow Canadian, I too shed some tears every November 11th! I always make sure to wear the poppy flower. Ever since I was a young boy (I'm 43 now), I have always respected and have been in awe of the veterans of all the wars this planet has had to suffer through.

In my early 20's, I went to school in Ft. Lauderdale Florida. I met a guy who became a very close friend of mine over the years; in fact, he was like an older brother. He was in the USN reserves.
He served in Vietnam. I went with him a number of times when he went to the reserves for weekend duty. I was able to meet a number of Vietnam vets. All I can say without going into a long dissertation is that as much as I respected soldiers before I met these guys, I had an even higher regard for them afterward.
This was for men who fought in a war that was the most divisive and controversial war in its country's history. These guys, upon coming home, for a large part, were treated like sh*t!

To this day, I wear two dog tags around my neck that are blank. They contain no markings on them. I wear them for the almost 60,00 men who were killed, and for the many, many wounded as well.

The men who fought in WW2, well they are and should be regarded as the greatest generation in our history. The thought of what the world would be like if they had failed numbs me to the core!

Having said all this, what makes me want to "play" war? Like others who have answered, I love the strategy and the challenge. I also know that it is not real.

I will be brutally honest here, I'm not sure if I could have been a soldier. The discipline and the ability to getting through bootcamp, where the individual is discarded to mold a person into a soldier, is something I don't think I could handle.

Worse, I too could not see my buddies getting killed and wounded. It would simply tear me apart inside. That, along with all the other horrors of war, is something that makes me appreciate what these men did. I thank my lucky stars all the time that my generation was not called into battle!

To all who served, my respect and admiration, even with what I tried to express here, can never be fully described by me. THANK YOU ALL!

In closing, may I quote the saying that shows up as my "motto" at the end of all my posts. It describes allot of what I feel.

The Only Thing Good About War, Is It's Ending!

John

Not being an american perhaps my views come off as odd sounding....

But I have read the books seen the films watched the documentaries. I lived my youth through those horrible years for the USA, but I did it safely in Canada.

I recall vivid scenes of the protests.
Sure the protests might have had valid arguments, but my psyche has been forever scarred by the treatment the poor schmuck received when he came home from his tropical hell.

To this day I can only respond with a knee jerk violently anti social attitude to the "peace" crowd. To spit on ones fellow citizens for the crime of being sent to a foreign conflict that they never chose has forever made me intolerant of that portion of society.

Maybe they were poorly informed perhaps they were actually that way intentionally. But the phrase "Give Peace a Chance" as a phrase usually gets my hackles up.
Its the rallying cry of people who will not defend their freedom.
Its the rallying cry of people that have no capacity to understand the people that secured that same freedom.
They are a blight on society.

Once a soldier always a soldier.
Even today, while I have not worn a uniform for my country for more than 20 years, I refuse to be labelled a civilian. The operation is not reversable (thank god). I am proud I put that uniform on and signed on the dotted line as a person willing to say yes my freedom is worth ANY cost. I am just fortunate I never had to pass the test.

Best way to get killed around me though...hit a woman, or spit on a soldier.
And yes, if you burn a US flag beside me, I will hurt you almost as badly as if you burned my flag (might not be in love with the US, but your flag has appeared in numerous past heroic deeds).

This is a question I have often asked myself. Having been interested in conflict and history as a whole since I was very young, I have consistantly battled with myself regarding this matter.

It became a family joke that i cried when the germans "always lost" when i was watching the hollywood war films. i always felt that there was good and bad on both sides, i have since learnt that this is true.

I can remember watching the Falklands conflict at the age of 9 and being mortified at the horror that i was seeing on the TV. (The first images of HMS sheffield being hit will always be with me).

I can also remember having nightmares about nuclear war during the mid/late eighties.

Throughout this time I played a variety of computer wargames, (and other computer games for that matter) and I found myself questioning whether I should be playing these games, even thinking that these games were fuelling my anxieties.

As i grew up i began to feel that having these anxieties has actually helped me appreciate that i`m not just "playing a game" and that people do get hurt, both emotionally and physically. It was just that i was aware at an earlier age.

Anyway, I concluded, that playing these "games" helped me understand the pain,horror and terror that people went through, and go through, to allow me to have the freedom i have today.

Paul Wykes

Originally posted by Paul Wykes

Anyway, I concluded, that playing these "games" helped me understand the pain,horror and terror that people went through, and go through, to allow me to have the freedom i have today.

Paul Wykes

immagine 10 ten men with 8 G3 rifles and 2 MG3 (in fact a only slighly improved WW2 MG42) machineguns,put them in foxholes and give them enough "real" ammo. not that training ammo.....and then let them shoot all rounds they have.
it was night and we had some "leuchtspur" (in english??)...it was great firework,but after that and immgine we were shooting at real soldiers, i must say i had a very ill feeling in my stomach.
must be cut to pieces everyone which would try to assault our
position without heavy support. it was a exercise with my german airforce reserve unit. only training,but the first time i was shocked what 10 men could do with automatic weapon and enough supply of ammo. dring my active time we never had shootings in this way with automatic fire in night time in real terrain. only shooting ranges with single fire, that was a hole other story...


not just playing games helped to understand the pain,horror and terror, sometimes reality..........

I too have struggled with this issue of fascination of wargames.

Earlier versions of this game used to message that units were 'killed'. After hours and hours of watching those numbers rack up, I began to realize that I was killing more 'pixelpeople' than real soldiers actually lost in the entire WWII conflict. Several times I shelved the game because it was making me ill.

Now they're mere 'Casualties'. And you know, that kinda helped me.

Laquering over the issue as being similar to chess or other mind challenging games, while accurate, doesn't really address the issue of deliberately bringing violence into our lives. Not just in this game but in other violent video/PC games that are available and sell in large numbers.

What is the underlying psychosis that drives us to persue these pastimes as 'entertainment'?

My personal excuse for this behavior is I'm an engineer (so most of you can figure out THAT kind of personality). I like to tinker with things. I probably spend as many hours fooling around with different weapons systems in the game engine as I do actually playing scenarios or PBEM.

So when I fly 40 aircraft through a wall of flak to determine who's got the best AAA - it's a pure simulation - just drones. And I regard it much as I would if I flew my flight simulator into the ground. "Oh well, pop in another quarter".

But the battles are different - somehow those little icons come to represent (represent, mine you) real people, with real lives who really want to go home. So I do my best. I do everything I can to bring my 'pixelboys' home in one piece. Every pawn is important.

But, someone once said "If you want to make an omelet - You've got to break a few eggs".

Greetings All

This is a very good thread that has no easy answers. Like most things in life, this game can be both good and bad depending on the person playing it.

War is horrible for all involved and can be a difficult subject to discuss. To say one is bad because of an interest in wargames would suggest that the reason that we play them is for the thrill of killing.

Most people that I have met in the wargaming community play for many reasons. Some are interested in military hardware while others may be interested only in the historical aspects of the game. There are so many ways to enjoy this hobby.

For me, I enjoy learning about the battles fought and wonder what it might have been like for the people involved. Like many, I ask myself if I would have been able to endure the pure hell that a soldier goes through in battle. Victory in a game to me is achieving as many objectives as possible with the minimum of loss.

The fact that this game requires a lot of thinking and effort to be good at causes us to learn more about the battles we are fighting. I buy many books just to learn more about the battles that I fight in this and other games. Although we cannot repay the soldiers that gave their all for their countries we can honor them by learning more about their struggles and hardship in battle. May we never forget.

My freedom has been paid for by the blood of many soldiers from many nations. May God bless them all.

AlvinS

gmenfan,
couldn't agree more. I remember the first time I saw an Avalon Hill add, saying something to the effect of "now you can change history.." For those interested in history, for whatever reason, these games give one a chance to 'Walter Mitty' through historical situations. Easy enough to seduce a kid who loved positioning plastic soldiers in imaginary battles outside in the yard.

I also agree with the chess analogy, quite fitting. These games, for me at least, are a method of relaxation similar to chess.

The wargaming genre has often been suspect in the eyes of some for, among other things, insensitivity and Nazi worship. I can remember SPI canceling a game based around a Nazi invasion of the US because many fans thought this was going too far. This view of the genre still remains, and will continue, despite the more vivid violence prevalent in other types of games, such as first-person shooters.

In my experience, most thoughtful folks realize that simulation gaming is just that, a simulation.

I dropped out of highschool in 73 and enlisted in the Marines.
I had always wanted to be a soldier. I don't know how many of you remember 1973. I wore my winter green uniform home on leave before being sent to Okinawa. It was almost a humiliating experience untill while walking down the side walk a one armed man following behind me (making me very nervous)
called to me "Where you going Jarhead? , then he asked if I was a PI or Hollywood Marine?"
(Marines who go to bootcamp at Parris Island refer to those who go through San Diego as Hollywood Marines)
He was a bartender at a place called simply the Pub.
I was underage (17) but he brought me inside and gave me a draft beer. The wall behind the bar had a large red Marine Corps flag and plagues and pictures. He told me had done 12 years in the Corps before losing his arm in Nam. Said he did not really mind the loss of the limb but he had not recovered from being discharged from the Corps and being separated from all his long time friends. He asked if I would stay for a while just so he could talk Marine with someone who (even a boot) would know what he was talking about.
I did 4 years in the Corps becoming a Sgt. my last year.
(playing my very first board war-game while stationed at Camp Lejeune SPI's War in Europe.
When I got out in 77 I wandered around for 4 years before missing it so much I re-enlisted. (I tried sooner but I had broken my ankle playing baseball in 78 and had to wait for the screw to be removed and the bone to fill in the space)
I went to a Marine recruiting office but the recruiter was never there. Just a sign saying back in 30 minutes. An old Navy chief always invited me into his office gave me a cup of coffee and talked "while I waited" Finally after a half dozen such vists I joined the Navy. (the chief then told me the Marine office had moved 8 months before). So I had to go to Navy boot camp (I had been out 2-3 weeks to long). I did 10 years on 2 different ships and a 2 year tour at the Philly Ship Yard.
To prevent this from becoming "War and Peace" I guess I should just get to my point. I have been out now for almost 10 years. I still have dreams about both the Navy and Marines. I miss my buddies. I joined the VFW trying to recapture the feeling I got from hanging out in the enlisted club. As I got older and rose in rank in the military I never soured on the young folks who came and went. I was always very proud of the performance of my 18-20 year olds. VFW's nowadays are mostly full of females and men who have never served (let alone fought in a forgeign war) and just want a place to sing Keroke (Lord help me) So I don't go there very often any more.
I grow attached to my units in long or mega campaigns.
I rename all my leaders after buddies from the service a lot of whom are now gone on extended recon into the undiscovered country. I like my war-games even with great sound effects I don't wake up during the night because a MG-42 keeps replaying in my head. I like my night time visits from people I can't talk to during the day. Now at 46 I still feel like I always wanted to be a soldier. But not to fight. I just cannot explain the difference between civilian friends and the ones who were with me in Beirut or sailing around the Gulf in 91. Spend a few years haze gray and underway and you will have met people you never forget.
I like the Matrix forums in general for much the same reason. The young people who visit here tend to be polite and amusing and the old time grognards are more like me then the majority of people I encounter in RL. (have you ever tried to explain a war-game to a non-grognard? Like explaining snow to an Arab). The Matrix forums are my new enlisted club. War-games are not always about war.
On the surface of course it appears so. But they are really just learning tools. They are true games meant for enjoyment and to pass the time.

One thing that I havent seen said yet

The people I knew in the service were guys that thought about the unit the "other" guy was important.

But with civilians its all about "me". Its not about "us" or the company, its just what's in it for me.

"My" wages, "My" seniority, "My" hours.

I have long lost touch with the people I knew in the service, but friends in uniform are a world apart from "just friends".

"Just friends" will buy you a beer, but will they really do anything for you when it gets ugly.

I pity civilians, I really do. Most haven't got a clue what its like to have "real" buddies.

I once explained that I do this to, in a small way, to honour my father, my uncle and my old comrades. But it's also a way, to get back the excitement of the bush. I don't really want to go back, of course. My attempt to volunteer after 11 Sept was a patriotic gesture and I in a way, (and my wife and son definitely) are glad the Army said we were too old.

I do not cheer the deaths of enemies, even in a wargame. I once told my son, when he asked are those the 'bad' guys, "There are no bad guys. Those are just poor buggers doing their service the same time we are." And I try to minimise my own casualties. If I can keep losses to one or two men, or none at all, I am happier than when I have all the V hexes with heavier losses. I have a flip statement for my use of preparatory bombardment, harassing barrages, and air strikes. "Ammunition is expensive, but men are more so.

My apologies for rambling on and on.

troopie

Don't pity us, or at least not all of us, Sarge. I have two good friends that are like brothers to me, one of twenty years, and one of eleven. Whatever I can give them, be it money, a shoulder, or blood, its theirs. And I know that comes right back.

I would again like to compliment you on a thread that makes you think, and feel.

Goblin