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Famous commanders indeed. Was Patton a better commander than MacArthur?

Darned right he was!  (Hope that wasn't too grey of answer... )

I am reading Bartsch's December 8, 1941:  MacArthur's Pearl Harbor.  Not kind...

Both rather eccentric in their own special ways . . .

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Famous commanders indeed. Was Patton a better commander than MacArthur?

Due to the nature of the place we are at right now many will disagree with my coming statement, but in my very humble opinion, and based on my readings, I have drawn the humble conclusion that None of them was any particular good. There is to much factors to analyze other then propaganda value and politics, roles who one of them actually were fairly good at, regardless over the years i have drawn the conclusion that their ability to make revolutionary decisions or to adopt to any abnormal situation was very limited. Anyway, to avoid opening the wrong can of worms I have nothing more to add, for people interested I recommend you to study both Pattons and Mc Arthurs Campinas and decisions during WW2.


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If none of them was good, what about the Axis generals then?

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

If none of them was good, what about the Axis generals then?

Most suffered from the same limitations, however several Japanese commanders had years of experience due to the Asian wars in the 30's. Most was however "old guard" type with limited ability to adopt to new thinking, and I would go as far as saying that the wast majority of the Generals in WW2 was of poor quality.

I would also in my humble wives and understanding, say that this applyed for most countries Generals.
There is also a few individuals through WW2 who actually was in my very humble understanding and very humble opinion very very talented commanders, and if I must name one I consider to be a truly talented commander, then It has to be SS Obergruppenführer Herbert-Otto Gille, who did some military maneuverings and operations that can't Evan be compared to Guderian's, Rommel's or any other "famus" commander I know of, but then again due to the Military Bench he fought for and commanded his achievements has not been recognized so much after WW2. I have read a dozen books about him, as I have about sevreal commanders, but he is definetly the one I consider to be the overall best commander of WW2.



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The word "commander" means different things to different people. In the truest sense, neither of them made policy and therefore both were following orders from above.

Now in the regard that "following orders" and come up with an operational plan to carry out the mission was almost without exception done by the commanders staff. Granted, the "commander" himself had the final say, but it wasnt him that usually did the actual "planning". Take Pattons drive to Bastonge for example. Before leaving to the staff meeting where he found out what was actually going on, he had his staff start working on plans to go to 3 different locations. He participated in none of that planning.

Now, by MY definition, a "good commander" is one that has the best staff since it was him that picked them. Kind of like a head coach in football. So in that regard, Patton was just about the best there was.

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Famous commanders indeed. Was Patton a better commander than MacArthur?

apple to the orange.

Mac was a Theater C/O. Patton was a corps, then Army C/O

It would be more appropriate to compare Mac to Ike.

apple to the orange.

Mac was a Theater C/O. Patton was a corps, then Army C/O

It would be more appropriate to compare Mac to Ike.

I agree. And doubtful if the opinion on anyone in this forum would change the opinion of anyone else. An interesting approach to this question would be, if you were a PFC, whose army would you have preferred to have been in?

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Famous commanders indeed. Was Patton a better commander than MacArthur?

apple to the orange.

Mac was a Theater C/O. Patton was a corps, then Army C/O

It would be more appropriate to compare Mac to Ike.

true.

in any of those cases Dugout Doug gets SMOKED, no comparison [:D]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

If none of them was good, what about the Axis generals then?

Most suffered from the same limitations, however several Japanese commanders had years of experience due to the Asian wars in the 30's. Most was however "old guard" type with limited ability to adopt to new thinking, and I would go as far as saying that the wast majority of the Generals in WW2 was of poor quality.

I would also in my humble wives and understanding, say that this applyed for most countries Generals.
There is also a few individuals through WW2 who actually was in my very humble understanding and very humble opinion very very talented commanders, and if I must name one I consider to be a truly talented commander, then It has to be SS Obergruppenführer Herbert-Otto Gille, who did some military maneuverings and operations that can't Evan be compared to Guderian's, Rommel's or any other "famus" commander I know of, but then again due to the Military Bench he fought for and commanded his achievements has not been recognized so much after WW2. I have read a dozen books about him, as I have about sevreal commanders, but he is definetly the one I consider to be the overall best commander of WW2.



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I have always thought Erich von Manstein was one of the best Military commanders of WW2. I will look up Gille.

Patton gets my vote
 

As much as I hate "Dug out Doug", he rates higher as a commander than "ole Blood & Guts"
 
MacArthur did run some excellent campaigns, not as many as he thought but from 44-45 (with the overwhelming power most JFB hate) his campaign across the top of new Guinea and into the PI was OK.
 
Patton made his name "swanning off" intot the blue.  Gafsa, Palermo. Brittany & Central France where all made AFTER Allied troops had drawn off the Axis forces. His attack northwards to Bastogne was made in double quick time, whereas a more composed attack would have succeded just as fast and with fewer casualties.
 
Maybe Apples & Oranges as Nikademeus says, but I'm glad Patton didnt move higher in the chain.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

As much as I hate "Dug out Doug", he rates higher as a commander than "ole Blood & Guts"

this is BLASPHEMY!!! this is MADNESS!!!![:D]

Oh no, not another "Was A better than B" thread...

I think Patton was a good leader of armor, and MacArthur rebounded well after his poor appearance (disappearance?) in the PI.

To address Japan's comments, there were many fine generals in my opinion on both sides of the fence.  Zhukov, Manstein, Rommel, and Yamashita all displayed good command decisions throughout the war (although Rommel's defense of France was wrong-headed).

and Rommel was hamstrung by Der Dumkopf [:D]

My trouble with both Patton and Mac is that neither of them fought or performed well in defensive campaigns like Zhukov, Von Manstein, Slim and Kesselering. To be a great commander I feel that they have to be good in both defensive and offensive campaigns.

I think the war in Europe would have ended sooner if Patton gotten the fuel and supplies vs. Market Garden. MacArthur did a great job in Japan post war, wish we had some one like him in post war Iraq.

ORIGINAL: pad152

I think the war in Europe would have ended sooner if Patton gotten the fuel and supplies vs. Market Garden.

lol
Soviet had won the war by the time Operation Overload started, it was only a question about time.
So the Allied Army in Europe had no effect what so ever on the outcome of WW2, they were there simply to ensure US and British Post War Interests was ensured as much as possible.
Of course, the landings in Normandy made it go faster as Germany had to send force to the West, but the overall outcome of WW2 had been decided long before that.

So Evan if you would give Patton the fuel he would need, you would probably not been able to make West Germany any larger only because of that.

Also, keep in mind that Poland become a Soviet Puppet state after the war, unless Normandy had been launched would France become a Soviet Puppet as well ? Answer is probably yes,

So those men who died on Omaha beach and during the Campaing, did not die to defeat Nazi rule, but to ensure Post war British and American interests. I don't think the regular US soldier knew it at the time, and frankly I'm not sure if they know it today. (It could destroy the US hero image, so I don't know if they ever will get to know),

Regardless, Wold War 2 was over in late 1943, and as of then it becomed a war about Post War Europa and Allied vs Soviet political interests.



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