Matrix Games Forums

I've read what there is to read on the forums and in the manual about Feudal Levies and Feudal Dues, etc. so I have a sense of how it should work. Though some of the posts make me wonder if it is in fact Working as Designed (WAD) in game right now or not.

I read some guys posting saying that they have lowered their Military Readiness below 100% but still keep getting levies showing up in the spring.

Could someone who understands precisely what this aspect of the game is intended to represent in terms of historical reality explain to me why it is in the game, how it is supposed to operate, what the benefits and costs of it are, and what the best ways to use/cope with it are? Is this dynamic really there for human players to _make use of_ in play of certain nations/situations or is it really there to properly allow the AI to play certain nations/situations?

My understanding of it is this: If you have feudal levies set to some level above Zero% you are in effect (as Monarch of a kingdom with several sub-kingdoms or fiefs ruled by lesser nobles [Dukes, Counts, Princes, etc.]) setting a level of taxation that you will extract from all client fiefdoms. As the manual explains, this level of extraction of resource goes toward Upkeep and then using the formula in the manual, also goes toward levying new units.

If I understand correctly, lowering Military readiness below 100% is SUPPOSED to cause no military units to be levied even if Feudal Levies is set above 0%?

I cant comment as to how exactly its supposed to work.

I can say I dont understand the frequent complaints (on the board in general, not necessarily you) and inability to "cope" with free units.  If you dont want them they can be immediately disbanded.  In certain situations you will get really good units (light infantry, jagers, artillery, lt or hvy cavalry, or high morale infantry) for free.  In the event you cant afford the new units that are being produced or need the space in your mobilization limit to produce something else, you can make it a zero sum situation by disbanding lower quality infantry or something to make room the turn before they are finished.  There isnt ever a time it has to cost you money or take up needed space.

Also the Feudal level isnt just related to the amount of Feudal units levied.  You also receive money and small numbers of free men entering the draft pool (I assume this represents tributes from peers and the tradition of royalty serving as junior officers, cavalry, guards, etc?) every turn.

You can change this level up or down but Ive heard that drastic changes in morale can occur from fiddling with this, so I personally never have.  Imposing feudal level changes on a long term enemy might be a good tactic because of the potential for disruption and the amount of effort needed to restablize after such conditions are imposed.

Thanks Mus!

Mus:  fair enough on how to "game" around it -- but I like 'poid's question.  I tend to think of the armies of the time as creations of the States of Europe, and not some levy on lesser dukes -- I know France was not using a levy system, heck, the nobility was gone after the revolution.  Russia - my sense and some limited research indicates they did operate on more of a levy system.

The German states were small enough, not sure they even had "sub-nobility" to levy from, though I guess an Elector or such could "levy" a battalion from a city. 

Britain had the system where officers could buy a commission and raise a unit, so in some ways, the levy for them might represent that -- but not sure of petty nobility raising units. 

I think an answer of what the system is representing in terms of history is a very fair question -- it's not a complaint -- it's a question so players can think of it in terms of historical fact.

AC

HiHi

In the main I'm with Mus on this one, remember that FL doesn't only cause the creation of FL units but also represents a certain amount of Economic/Social backwardness still seen in some of the countries by 'Serfdom' (eg Russia didn't abolish Surfdom till 1860 (ish) ).

In the more industrialised nations it may also be seen to represent the changes taking place in the period from Agrarian domestic based Industries, to a more Urbanised Industrial base as the ongoin 'Industrial Revolution' took hold.

All the Best
Peter

I tend to agree that it has a necessary place in the game to represent the different opportunities and constraints on production and mobilization in the less progressive nations (e.g., Russia and Ottoman Empire), and felt that way even when I asked my question. I just didn't EXACTLY understand what it represents, though now I understand a bit better. What I'd really like is to hear Gil or Eric comment on it, else someone who really was privy to game design decisions. This is in no way meant to be a complaint or some kinda antagonistic 'Surh! EXPLAIN yowsahlf" smack in the face with the gauntlet; I just would like to hear somebody who really understands what it represents explain it, and also explain strategy for using/working with it. The manual is very brief, and all there is on the forums so far is some whinging and some direct responses to the whinging. (except for this thread, my thread of course, which shall open a new Golden Age in the discussion of Feudal Levies [:D])

I am not expert on subject but from what I know about history, feudal levy in game is really simplification, which might be bit incorrect in some cases.

Feudal levy was simply feudals which owned military service to king for various privileges and land donations. That might be lesser feudals coming to service themself and or together with family members or higher nobles recruiting whole regiments on their own.

In case of Austria light cavalery was ofthen made of lesser nobles for example.

With Cossacks of Russia I am realy in doubth. They did not form part of nobility firsthly and they were recruited long afther nobility and feudalism was abolished during revolution. They exist till today by the way. Cossacks were people, ofthen with questionable past from whole Europe, who were setled by Czars in buffer zones on southern borders with muslim or turkoman populated countries and granted some privilegies like exemption from taxation in return for military servis and patroling of borders. They lived basicly in constant low intensity war with their muslim neighbors and their society was highly militarized with high lewel of independence and self gowernment.

Similar societies existed in Austrian Balkan provinces where border zones with Turkey were setlled in same maner. Vojvodina in Serbia was one of such buffer zones for example. People from these regions were famed as light cavalery and light infantry. They were skiled in irregular warfare and skirmishes.

ORIGINAL: adamc6

Mus:  fair enough on how to "game" around it -- but I like 'poid's question.  I tend to think of the armies of the time as creations of the States of Europe, and not some levy on lesser dukes -- I know France was not using a levy system, heck, the nobility was gone after the revolution.

And yet British Guards at the time were referred to as "The Gentlemens Sons" and minor nobility also joined the Cavalry, became officers in the Army and Navy, etc. in an effort to justify their privilege.

The money and free reinforcement manpower that comes from "points" in Feudalism makes sense as an abstraction, balanced as Kingmaker pointed out by a penalty in mercantile profit and other penalties to represent the increasing "backwardness" of feudalism as we entered the more modern age.

What I'd really like is to hear Gil or Eric comment on it, else someone who really was privy to game design decisions.

This isn't my area, so I'm asking Mr. Z or Eric to chime in.

There is a bug such that feudalism below 100% does not prevent troops from being levied, but as we've mentioned in the patch discussion, the upcoming patch will allow players to choose whether or not to accept each type of unit levied during the SPring feudal levy phase.

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

There is a bug such that feudalism below 100% does not prevent troops from being levied

Thats actually military readiness, not feudalism correct?

ORIGINAL: Mus
Thats actually military readiness, not feudalism correct?

Nope,feudalism gives you new units each spring. Your military readiness affects the size of all units, regardless how your got them.

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Nope,feudalism gives you new units each spring. Your military readiness affects the size of all units, regardless how your got them.

Its setting your military readiness below 100% that is supposed to stop your spring levy, per the manual. Feudal level can produce a levy at any given level, level merely determines the size was my understanding.

Well it sounds like the dudes are on the case, and whatever they do with the patch will likely improve the Feudal Levy a bit.

yes, military readiness

I think military readiness and feudal level should be separate things - if you don't want the "free" unit then you should be able to reject it. Don't want to have to lower military readiness just to stop the "free" units. But looks like the patch will solve this anyway, so guess we're all looking forward to the patch!