Matrix Games Forums

My house rules state that only Wildcats may be used as fighters on CVEs.
This is to my knowledge correct because the space restrictions on CVEs.
Does not apply for transport missions, only for CVEs used as combat units.

"The U.S. Navy FM-2s operated exclusively from escort carriers (CVEs), small ships with notoriously lively flight decks."

However, the game puts Hellcats (Sagamon) and F4-U on the combat CVEs. Any idea if this is an other bug or has there been historic evidence?

Zeke - I once saw a documentary film on History channel that consisted largely of actual combat photography and it clearly showed F6F's launching from a small carrier. But, I don't know if it was a CVE or CVL. I remember this because it had been colorized and, although it was an original war film, they colorized the Hellcats OD.

From a quick look through my reference books it looks like Hellcats and Corsairs did indeed serve on CVE's. I don't think stowage space was the problem, since folding wings took care of that. The main issue seems to have been that the CVE flight decks were shorter and less stable than those of the fleet carriers. This made take-offs and landings with heavily loaded fighters more risky. (The Corsair was not approved for US carrier operation for over a year because the long nose cut off the pilot's view of the flight deck.)
 
I would recommend a House Rule based on what apparently happened: no Hellcats or Corsairs on CVE's until the Japanese start Kamikaze attacks. (When the USN grasped the threat they knew they needed the best available fighters, and as many of them as possible.)

I don't think stowage space was the problem

I disagree. The Wildcat had a lenght of 8.76m compared to Hellcat/Corsair with 10.2m. On ships small as CVEs this is an issue.
It would mean the fighter sqn would be approx. 15% smaller to compensate the bigger ac size. The game does not accomodate this.

The combat TO weight of the F4/F6 was nearly x2 of the FM2. I doubt a full scale combat support operation would be possible form CVEs. But the game would ignore this and let them attack in full force.

Wiki
"However, they were adequate for small escort carriers against submarine and shore threats. These relatively modest ships carried only two types of planes (along with the GM-built Avengers). The Wildcat's slower landing speed and ability to take off without a catapult made it more suitable for shorter flight decks."

I would think though once you get Bearcats those should be ok. Though I kinda wonder if a Hellcat or Corsair was too big how it is they could use Avengers...I've seen one and man, it is a BIG single-engine plane!!

Though I kinda wonder if a Hellcat or Corsair was too big how it is they could use Avengers...I've seen one and man, it is a BIG single-engine plane!!

That is an excellent point. At a rough guess, the Avengers operating from CVE's were unable to use their full payload capacity. I know that the first Avenger squadrons were designated "VT" for torpedo-bombing squadrons. A number of the later groups were designated "VC" for composite squadrons. (Anti-submarine work, recon patrols, etc.)

Does anyone know if Avengers ever flew torpedo missions from CVE's ?

Didn't CVE's use very small Avenger units, like 6 planes or something? Would it have to do with hangar/deck capacity vs. useful number of aircraft that could be carried, IE F6F's or Corsairs would take up too much physical space?

If we are talking about the relative aircraft storage space on an aircraft carrier, there is something you might not know. The standard CVE was not much smaller than the (former light cruiser) CVL. In fact, it was slightly shorter but had a broader beam. Further, they didn't put in the high-speed engines that take up so much space. I know about the relative scales and sizes because I do some of the masters for Panzerschiffe, the long-term company putting out 1/2400-scale naval miniatures. (I just finished the prototype for the Italian WWI dreadnought Conte di Cavour.) We try to make our models as consistently accurate as possible.

If the flight deck is a consideration, the flight deck of a CVE is shorter but slightly wider than a Princeton CVL. Take-off with a heavy load might be a problem because of the flight deck length, especially since you are not going into the wind at as high a speed. I think the main reason for the reduced capacity of the CVE was the number of aircraft they could post on the flight deck before sending off a "mission." At least one publication I recall indicated that a CVE could only send off about half the aircraft that a CVE could at any one launch. However the aircraft would be fully loaded, which was why they could only send so many.

You think storage was a problem? Have you noticed the reduced storage of the British aircraft carriers? About as much as the CVE's. However, the ships themselves were not much smaller than the Yorktown class CV's. The reason for the lack of storage? The British CV's were expected to operate in restricted waters, such as the Mediterranean, where they could be subject to frequent land-based air attack. As such, the flight deck and the hangar deck were concrete-and-steel-armoured bastions, including their sides. Very restrictive. US carriers had wood flight decks, and thin steel hangar decks.

There is a little-known but amusing anecdote that is heard mostly in the Royal Navy. The day after a kamikaze hit (I think) the USS Franklyn - which as you know wrecked her and ended up in her being scrapped - a kamikaze hit one of the British carriers operating in the same area, I think HMS Illustrious, in almost the exact same spot on the flight deck. The British crew hosed down the burning aircraft wreckage, bulldozed it over the side, and were operating again in about 10 minutes. The only evidence of the attack was an extensive scorch mark.

a CVE could only send off about half the aircraft that a CVE could at any one time

Thank you for the inside, LouisXIV and the input of all others.

The game operates always the full sqn and full payloads. Therefore I will keep the restrictions in my house rules.