Matrix Games Forums

In the screenshots, that I've seen, the guns have only 2 characteristics: Range and Penetration.
For now, I'm talking only about gun itself, not it's position, ammo qty or armor.

Is this true? If no – then – what other characteristics do guns have? These 2 seem WAY too little.

Good question.

Two ratings that would be important are some sort of blast value
for HE rounds fired by the guns (used during bombardment of
land targets), and the rate of fire of the gun.

The rate of fire would determine how many salvos a certain type
of gun could fire in a given amount of time during a surface engagement.
For example, ship A's main guns get two broadsides off during one
"round" of combat in the UV combat engine, but ship B gets three
broadsides off in that same "round" of combat, because it's main guns
fire a little faster. And on that third and final broadside, maybe one
of ship B's main gun rounds hits and penetrates one of ship A's main
turrets, thus preventing that turret from firing in the next "round" of
combat. Which could make a big difference in the battle if that
knocked out turret would have landed a critical hit the following
round on Ship B.

Hi, I just wondered what the 18inch AA round would look like?
I don't think they were in service in period covered by UV but in Witp they might be amusing

There can be many different approaches to a problem, and they might have different merits.
The best – IMHO – is the one, that grows out of the already existing, established games of the great&only GG.
The GG games, that I love, are:
War in Russia (WiR), Pacific War (PW), Carrier Strike (CS),
Battle of Britain (BoB), 12 o'Clock High – Bombing the Reich (TOH-BTR)
Don't tell me that you don't love these .

In TOH-BTR and BoB, the guns have, besides range & penetration, also damage and accuracy (hit probability).
In PW & CS, the guns have separate flak rating, which is EFFECTIVELY hit probability modified by range –
that is, probability of a hit on a plane during the time, that a plane travels from max gun range
to the point of dropping bombs/torps.

IMO, the MINIMUM solution would be the following characteristics:
1. Range (exists).
2. Penetration (exists).
3. Damage (damage of a HE shell, used in bombardment of soft targets, like infantry) (exists in TOH-BTR & BoB).
To Dunedain: Damage combines damage of 1 shell & fire rate into 1 number.
4. Accuracy against ground targets
(hit probability when shooting at hard ground targets - ships, shore batteries, tanks, etc)
When using AP shells – damage is halved, as in PW & CS.
5. Accuracy against aircraft (hit probability when shooting at airplanes). ALWAYS less than #4.

On the reason, why Damage and Penetration ABSOLUTELY must be different,
see the old discussion in PW forum here:
showthread.php?s=&threadid=10870

If we take a gist of discussion – it's as follows:
The world is 3-dimensional. So, for a given technological level:

The DAMAGE of 1 shell is approximanely proportional to it's weight, slightly modified by shell velocity.
The weight is roughly proportional to caliber cubed (Cal^3).
The damage during a fixed amount of time is damage of 1 shell by fire rate.
Fire RATE generally tends to decrease with caliber slightly faster, than inverse proportionally.
That is, an 8in gun usually fires more than 2 times while 16in fires 1 time,
but 1 16in shell weighs about 4 times the weight of 2 8in shells.
Generally, damage is proportional to caliber squared (^2).
Although the lower-calibre automatic guns have rather high damage – because of high fire rate.

The PENETRATION of a shell is proportional to it's kinetic energy per unit of cross-section area.
That is, it is rougly proportional to caliber, STRONGLY modified by barrel length.
That is, 16in/50 cal gun penetrates about 2 times the armor that 8in/50 penetrates
(provided shells have same technological level and the armor is of the same quality).

The last (#5) parameter is like flak rating in PW & CS,
but it is NOT a summation of hit probability during ALL attack run, but during, say,
time it takes an average plane to fly 1000 yds.

So:
1. Faster planes will get a bonus (less time under fire).
2. Torp-bombers w/longer range torps and fighters w/longer range guns on strafing runs (P-39 w/37mm gun)
will also get a bonus – they turn away earlier.

Hello...

Guns have range, penetration, accuracy and effect qualities. Anti-aircraft and dual purpose guns also have a maximum altitude quality. The value of the gun magazine is hard coded.

Topedo bombers are the most vulnerable of aircraft to anti-aircraft artillery (AAA), followed by dive bombers and fighter bombers who are bombing (assuming level bombers bomb from 4000 feet of more). Speed of aircraft is a significant factor when calculating the 'to hit' chance for a AAA.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood

I saw reference to p39 w/ 37mm cannon. IIRC this is the p400, or am i confused(more likely)

Hello...

The P-39 mounts a 37mm nose fired auto-cannon. In the P-400, this is replaced with a 20mm auto-cannon.

Bye...

Michael Wood
___________________________________________________

Originally posted by corbulo
I saw reference to p39 w/ 37mm cannon. IIRC this is the p400, or am i confused(more likely)

I was wondering what made the difference. I had thought a P-400 was a p-40 Warhawk with a Zero on it's tail.

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Guns have ... penetration ...

Are you saying, that penetration & damage are STILL COMBINED in 1 value? You're KILLING ME!!!

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Guns have ... accuracy ... qualities.

Is it used against both planes & ships? Or do planes have additional modifier?

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Guns have ... effect ... qualities.

What's effect?

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Anti-aircraft and dual purpose guns also have a maximum altitude quality.

Good.

Originally posted by Mike Wood
The value of the gun magazine is hard coded.

Wait a sec. Are you suggesting, that all anti-ship guns have ammo for 9 rounds, and all DP&Flak – for 36?
One and the same gun on a larger ship could (and often HAD) more ammo,
than the same gun on the smaller one!
See http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm
On a DD - there was typically 360 rounds, on a CL Clevaland - 500!

That's fundamental benefit of large size – can, among other things, stay in battle longer.

I'll go kill myself. My death will be on your conscience.

Now that Mark is gone, maybe we can have serious discussion. Just kidding!

There is a screenshot posted that shows the ship editor with a column that allows you to enter the amount of ammo, presumably the number of rounds of fire per turret(s).

Originally posted by Kadste
There is a screenshot posted that shows the ship editor with a column
that allows you to enter the amount of ammo,
presumably the number of rounds of fire per turret(s).

True! Mike, Are you sure they're HARDcoded?

A few quick notes here:

Effect is the damage rating I believe you were looking for, separating that out from penetration. When you get hit with an 8" shell instead of a 5" shell, it doesn't just penetrate the armor more easily, it results in a lot more damage to the ship and a better chance of critical hits and such.

Mike is the expert here, but for what it's worth I am able to edit the ammo values on a ship by ship basis with the database editor, save them, and they do show up in the game.

Regards,

- Erik

Hello...

No, Mark. I am not saying that penetration and damage are combined into one value. I am not killing you. I am saying, or trying to say, that penetration is a factor. Effect is a second factor. Effect is the "damage" variable that you seek. It is in the game. The effect value is used differently for anti-shipping attacks than it is for anti-land attacks. It represents the effects of armor-piercing and high explosive rounds.

No, Mark. I am not suggesting that all anti-ship guns have ammo for 9 rounds. My posting never addressed the issue of ammunition. When I said that the effects of the magazine were hard-coded, I meant that ships who have a lift from the magazine to the turret have a greater rate of fire than those who have to lug the ammunition across the deck. On the topic of ammunition per gun, this is assigned in the data-base.

Hope this Helps (more than my last posting did)...

Michael Wood

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Effect is a second factor. Effect is the "damage" variable that you seek. It is in the game.
The effect value is used differently for anti-shipping attacks than it is for anti-land attacks.
It represents the effects of armor-piercing and high explosive rounds.
When I said that the effects of the magazine were hard-coded,
I meant that ships who have a lift from the magazine to the turret have a greater rate of fire
than those who have to lug the ammunition across the deck.

Thanks for the info. It helped, I'm still alive. However, I still've 4 questions.

1. Effect – is it the damage of 1 shell, or is it the damage of a shell, multiplied by fire rate?
Your statement about magazine suggests damage of 1 shell
(which, IMHO, in a battle with ROUNDS of combat isn't really needed).

2. Accuracy: Is it used against both planes & ships? Or do planes have additional modifier?
How – in general – a hit is determined during flak combat?

3. If the accuracy of a gun is, say, 60%, and range is 20 miles, then – at what range is accuracy 60%?
You see, the strange thing about guns in TOH_BTR(BoB) that smaller guns have better accuracy.
That's strange, because
even if 20mm Hispano cannon IS less accurate at, say 1500 yds, than 12.7 Browning at 1000 yds,
it still is practically identical at the same distance – 1000 yds.
And in PW the small guns have low accuracy – which suggests, that for THEM,
the range is taken close to THEIR max.

4. How the hit probability is modified by range?

Well, i´m interested in that, too..
in BTR and BoB the gun´s and the gun value was strange for me, because a P51 with 6 12,7 had an nearly equal gun value as an me262 with 4 30mm cannons...

I think, today it should be possible to calculate the following aspects
a.) the effect of a hit
b.) the acc in different ranges
c.) the fire rate
d.) the range finding system (the radar operated late war fire of american ships is much better then the poor performance in early war)
e.) the jamming chance (for planes, the MK 103 30mm cannon had a high jamming rate after high g-turns)
f.) the V0, the muzzle speed of the projectile
g.) the projectile as a manufactured weapon (the british ammo had a poor quality of penetration, for example)
h.) the battle conditions (like one ship has "old" guns, many shoots, should be replaced by new ones, worser hit chance)

i.) Most important should be the crew anyway, because if a "blind" crew has a superior gun, they never will hit something...,
j.) the coordinating of the fire (how many guns fire at the same target (quicker reaction to hit the target)

I would like see these factors (or at last some of it) seperate, not as one single number..


For the ammo:

I don´t think that the bg guns have only 9 grantes, i think this is a simplification, i would like to see %-Numbers, like, Turret Alpha is down to 60% ammo (maybe that could be 140 grenades, because most countries had 200 grenades pro barrel...)

Maybe we can put this into production, too, like barrels and special grenades... if a ship has a special calibre, you must produce for it and if you produce to much of it and this ship is sunk, you have waste it....(okay, now i´m nearly mogami )

Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi
I think, today it should be possible to calculate the following aspects
(a.) the effect of a hit
(b.) the acc in different ranges
(c.) the fire rate
(d.) the range finding system
(the radar operated late war fire of american ships is much better then the poor performance in early war)
(e.) the jamming chance (for planes, the MK 103 30mm cannon had a high jamming rate after high g-turns)
(f.) the V0, the muzzle speed of the projectile
(g.) the projectile as a manufactured weapon (the british ammo had a poor quality of penetration, for example)
(h.) the battle conditions
(like one ship has "old" guns, many shoots, should be replaced by new ones, worser hit chance)
(i.) Most important should be the crew anyway, because if a "blind" crew has a superior gun,
they never will hit something...,
(j.) the coordinating of the fire (how many guns fire at the same target (quicker reaction to hit the target)

(a) – is there,
(b) – seems to be there only for 1 given distance (which?);
IMHO – should be 2 accuracies: Ground & Air targets;
(c) – can be combined into (a) – combat is ROUND-based, remember?
(d) – should be, BUT this is the property of a SHIP (or a plane, or whatever weapon platform) –
because GUN doesn't have radar – a SHIP does;
(e, g, h) – good to have, but I think you want too much EVEN from the great GG;
(f) – well, doesn't (b) do the job? (i) – is crew's experience; (j) – is gun's position on a platform.

Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi
I don´t think that the bg guns have only 9 grantes, i think this is a simplification,
i would like to see %-Numbers, like, Turret Alpha is down to 60% ammo
(maybe that could be 140 grenades, because most countries had 200 grenades pro barrel...)

That seems to be there.

Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi
Maybe we can put this into production, too, like barrels and special grenades...
if a ship has a special calibre, you must produce for it and
if you produce to much of it and this ship is sunk, you have waste it....(okay, now i´m nearly mogami )

Adnan, you're reading my mind! I was toying w/idea of independent gun production
and installation of different gun complement on a GIVEN platform!
But I was not brave enough to ask .

Well, i like the idea of many parameters...

if we have an combat comparisation of a p51 and a me262 (for example, cause of BTR), at short range many 12,7mm projectiles hit the plane and this will end dangerous and with damages, but isn´t a secure kill, in the same time a me262 hit only 3 or 4 times the plane, but this will every time be the end of the plane. But the p51 can hit the plane moreoften and and and... so every gun and every plane have advantages or disadvantages (like the discussion about the long lance, great torpedo, but dangerous for the carrier cause of the fire damages ....) and i want to know what i can do with the weapon

i forgot to say that i want also much more tactics to fight... for an american gi it is stupid to run with a bajonett against the enemy lines, but it sounds cool for a japanese...

for the air fight, if i have a great bomber killer, i will use it against bombers, but not to hunt down fighters (one great problem in BTR, the Me262 tried always to fight fighters, even with different strategies, i like the idea to say "Ignore them" (well this plane could ignore any fighter in combat, only take off and landing they there pissed of) and concentrate on bombers... and i want this for the pacific war, too... if i know as an american player that the japs land in nouema, and i want to kill the supply, i ignore big ships... but i read, that you can use a tactic (carriers as a trap) o save your transporters... and that is okay by standard settings, but i want to talk to my boys and tell them " Boys, here are your targets for today.... tankers, not carriers..." maybe a small percentage attack them because of proud or stupidness, but the gross should attak the targets i tell them...)

okay, now Gary and Matrix hate me, because i want more details... but i think, it could be done and we could profit from such improvements....

also, i dislike automatic winners, if the japs conquer australia, well, the us fleet will come from pearl to invade japan and and and, fight it untill the end

Hello...

1) Each shell is fired as a seperate entity for 57mm or larger, in naval combat. Smaller than that are fired in bursts.

2) Accuracy is used for both anti-aircraft fire, anti-shipping fire and bombardment. It is used differently for each. There are many (a dozen or so) modifiers for accuracy. These include things like experience of the firing entity, size of the target, range to the target and the like.

3&4) Accuracy is a relative value. Combat calculations in this game are rather complex. There are many equations involved, so I really can't give you a simple answer. The computations are as realistic as Gary could make them (he wrote the combat equations) and you should find that ships firing at each other or at aircraft feel the way they should. Joel and I think they a have a very good feel to them.

Bye...

Michael Wood

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Hello...

1) Each shell is fired as a seperate entity for 57mm or larger, in naval combat. Smaller than that are fired in bursts.

2) Accuracy is used for both anti-aircraft fire, anti-shipping fire and bombardment. It is used differently for each. There are many (a dozen or so) modifiers for accuracy. These include things like experience of the firing entity, size of the target, range to the target and the like.

3&4) Accuracy is a relative value. Combat calculations in this game are rather complex. There are many equations involved, so I really can't give you a simple answer. The computations are as realistic as Gary could make them (he wrote the combat equations) and you should find that ships firing at each other or at aircraft feel the way they should. Joel and I think they a have a very good feel to them.

Bye...

Michael Wood

Thanks and thank you... iknew you would calculate it
but i still would love to know the parameters (to learn the best use of the weapons... sure we can learn it the hard way.. oops, the yamato was sunk by a single torpdo, what have i done ???)

Originally posted by Mike Wood
(1) Each shell is fired as a seperate entity for 57mm or larger, in naval combat.
Smaller than that are fired in bursts.
(2) Accuracy is used for both anti-aircraft fire, anti-shipping fire and bombardment.
It is used differently for each. There are many (a dozen or so) modifiers for accuracy.
These include things like experience of the firing entity, size of the target, range to the target and the like.
(3&4) Accuracy is a relative value. Combat calculations in this game are rather complex.
There are many equations involved, so I really can't give you a simple answer.
The computations are as realistic as Gary could make them (he wrote the combat equations) and
you should find that ships firing at each other or at aircraft feel the way they should.
Joel and I think they a have a very good feel to them.

Thanks for the info, Mike! However!

(1) If (1) is true, then you guys DO need a ROF (rate of fire) parameter for guns 57mm & above.
Reason – 3in gun and 6in gun of identical technological level STILL have different fire rate –
by a factor of 2 at least, and probably 3, and the same is true about 8in vs. 16in, etc.

(2) Don't think that to use accuracy for both anti-air & anti-ground is right.
The reason:
When firing at aircraft, the only thing that really matters is velocity of the shell –
the bigger – the better the chance to hit.
The main reason of missing your target is movement of the target.
When firing at a ship – the shell velocity DOES matter, but the CEP (circular error) of a shell – also matters.
At typical distances of naval combat the dispersion of shells plays at least as large role.
So, accuracy for anti-air & anti-ship is two rather different things.

(3&4) Please tell the great and wise GG to include all the formulas in the manual.
As great as GG is, the game isn't guaranteed from sinking Yamato with 100 strafing runs from Mustangs