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Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:14 am
by moonraker65
I was just wondering. Being as the Allies have the Manhattan Project that ultimately leads to the Atomic Bomb. Should the Japanese have the Balloon Bombs added in to the game ?. I know they didn't do much significant damage and only killed 6 people but they were a menace.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:22 am
by DuckofTindalos
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form. I'm taking this as a joke post.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:48 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Terminus
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form.
The "Fu Go" (I think that was the Japanese name of the balloon project) was utter failure in military sense. Kristian is 100% right and correct here.
Nonetheless the USA response was quite big and in pure sense of "cost and benefit" the Japanese did quite good because for relatively small amount of their input "cost" the USA responded with disproportionably bigger "cost"!
The caveat is that USA had so much more resources (literally abundance) that it was of no importance whatsoever in the big picture of WWII... [;)]
Leo "Apollo11"
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:36 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: Terminus
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form. I'm taking this as a joke post.
once again you just prove what kind of a poor individual you are. Moonraker has only 2% the number of posts as you accumulated with your spam while he´s been a forum member for a year longer than you. He comes up with a thread and of course you have to be the first one to answer. While you are absolutely correct with the first sentence of your post, the second one is just an insult once again. Isn´t it possible that you could just stop pissing off people? Must be hard eh if you don´t have another life than sitting in front of your PC without having learnt how to socially behave? There is no reason telling another forum member that his post would be a joke.
Please, just stop behaving like if you wouldn´t be smart enough.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:20 am
by Misconduct
The balloon bombs were not much of a problem at all, japanese designed them to be a terror weapon, basically hoping to start massive panic and fires everywhere along the US. The idea was massive number of these would be dropped all over the US, hoping to kill civilians and start wild fires. However the military pretty much kept it secret until the 6 people were killed, however the military didn't allow any newspaper to report on the subject.
In a military sense it was not even worth the time to do so, on paper however it was a pretty fair idea as Japan did not have any other way to attack deeper in the US.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:02 am
by moonraker65
Fair comment. As I said they didn't really pose a significant threat. I was thinking more in the terms of "Secret Project" rather than actual weapon system.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:27 am
by Naskra
There was one balloon that impeded the Manhattan Project by causing a power outage.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:40 am
by rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:55 am
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
Probably not: very limited payload.
But, haven't you guys noticed that they already ARE in the game?? [&:]
The effects of the "balloon bombs" in the game are actually fairly well modeled in WITP, achieving exactly the same effects as they did during the course of actual events... [;)]
You might notice that A-bombs don't show up on a certain date, and the day they DO show up is somewhat variable... this is due to the effects of balloon bombs causing power outages.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:03 am
by stuman
ORIGINAL: moonraker
I was just wondering. Being as the Allies have the Manhattan Project that ultimately leads to the Atomic Bomb. Should the Japanese have the Balloon Bombs added in to the game ?. I know they didn't do much significant damage and only killed 6 people but they were a menace.
Saki Bombs are deadlier. Trust me, I know.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:04 am
by rominet
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
Probably not: very limited payload.
The weight of the Mark VII japanese bacteriological bomb was 1 kg.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:12 am
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
Probably not: very limited payload.
The weight of the Mark VII japanese bacteriological bomb was 1 kg.
Yes: and thousands of them were launched and never came anywhere near anything... i doubt one or more 1 kg bacteriological bomb would have a lot of effect after spending weeks aloft at high altitude, then spending many more weeks laying around in a forest... perhaps kill a couple of people, which is the net effect of the the actual balloon bomb campaign (it killed the wife of an assistant boy scout troop leader and killed and wounded a few of other people). None of the bombs ever came down in a populated area.
Shoot, for all we know, hundreds of the bombs
could have been armed with bacteriological weapons (it wasn't like the Japanese were talking about these activities before the war, and nobody was talking about it afterwards)... very few (less than 10???) of the balloon bombs were ever discovered*.
*EDIT: discovered after the war, i should clarify.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:18 am
by stuman
The design of the bombs was rather creative iirc.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:34 am
by oldman45
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
Probably not: very limited payload.
But, haven't you guys noticed that they already ARE in the game?? [&:]
The effects of the "balloon bombs" in the game are actually fairly well modeled in WITP, achieving exactly the same effects as they did during the course of actual events... [;)]
You might notice that A-bombs don't show up on a certain date, and the day they DO show up is somewhat variable... this is due to the effects of balloon bombs causing power outages.
Did you keep a straight face while you typed this [:)]
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:35 am
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: oldman45
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: rominet
With chemical or bacteriological weapons on board, these balloons could have been dangerous.
Probably not: very limited payload.
But, haven't you guys noticed that they already ARE in the game?? [&:]
The effects of the "balloon bombs" in the game are actually fairly well modeled in WITP, achieving exactly the same effects as they did during the course of actual events... [;)]
You might notice that A-bombs don't show up on a certain date, and the day they DO show up is somewhat variable... this is due to the effects of balloon bombs causing power outages.
Did you keep a straight face while you typed this [:)]
Except for the evil chuckling, sure... [:D]
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:31 pm
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: Terminus
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form. I'm taking this as a joke post.
I would hardly call them 'not a menace' when a woman and 5 children were killed by one. They certainly weren't insignificant to those families. And while the fire bombing of Japan certainly killed more people, any civilian deaths due to military action can not be dismissed so easily.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the US response was disproportionate to the level of the threat. They had a psycological effect at the very least.
Chance to hit anything, less than 1% at best in game terms. Should they be in there, no since the game does not have a social 'fear' model. They aren't going to hit anything, and would be hard to model properly since they would act as normal 'bomber' in a sense.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:48 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: Shark7
ORIGINAL: Terminus
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form. I'm taking this as a joke post.
I would hardly call them 'not a menace' when a woman and 5 children were killed by one. They certainly weren't insignificant to those families. And while the fire bombing of Japan certainly killed more people, any civilian deaths due to military action can not be dismissed so easily.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the US response was disproportionate to the level of the threat. They had a psycological effect at the very least.
Chance to hit anything, less than 1% at best in game terms. Should they be in there, no since the game does not have a social 'fear' model. They aren't going to hit anything, and would be hard to model properly since they would act as normal 'bomber' in a sense.
How many people were killed by auto accidents in the period involved?
As for terror - how many civilians were aware of the threat? Dozens! [X(] [>:] (Actually, to be fair: a single magazine article in Newsweek about a "balloon mystery" was run shortly before the Japanese abandoned their project... the US immediately asked the press not to run any more articles on the subject, and they didn't).
As for hit percentage, maybe to keep closer to the truth - 1 or 2 chances in 1/10000 (actual events: 1 "hit" in 9000 launches or so). Then effects should be to kill a few civilians.
Of course, if i balloon campaign IS initiated, it should cost significantly in industrial capacity - say subtract 1 industry for every 50 balloons (iirc, several hundred thousand civilians were employed
part time in the effort).
Even the Japanese with their penchant for projects that went nowhere realized the futility of the project and abandoned it - last one launched in April 1945 (but the single "hit" was not until May 1945).
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:53 pm
by BrucePowers
In all seriousness your chance of getting hit by lightning is greater.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:57 pm
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: Shark7
ORIGINAL: Terminus
No, they were not a menace in any way, shape or form. I'm taking this as a joke post.
I would hardly call them 'not a menace' when a woman and 5 children were killed by one. They certainly weren't insignificant to those families. And while the fire bombing of Japan certainly killed more people, any civilian deaths due to military action can not be dismissed so easily.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the US response was disproportionate to the level of the threat. They had a psycological effect at the very least.
Chance to hit anything, less than 1% at best in game terms. Should they be in there, no since the game does not have a social 'fear' model. They aren't going to hit anything, and would be hard to model properly since they would act as normal 'bomber' in a sense.
How many people were killed by auto accidents in the period involved?
As for terror - how many civilians were aware of the threat? Dozens! [X(] [>:] (Actually, to be fair: a single magazine article in Newsweek about a "balloon mystery" was run shortly before the Japanese abandoned their project... the US immediately asked the press not to run any more articles on the subject, and they didn't).
As for hit percentage, maybe to keep closer to the truth - 1 or 2 chances in 1/10000 (actual events: 1 "hit" in 9000 launches or so). Then effects should be to kill a few civilians.
Of course, if i balloon campaign IS initiated, it should cost significantly in industrial capacity - say subtract 1 industry for every 50 balloons (iirc, several hundred thousand civilians were employed
part time in the effort).
Even the Japanese with their penchant for projects that went nowhere realized the futility of the project and abandoned it - last one launched in April 1945 (but the single "hit" was not until May 1945).
Totally missing my point I see, that means I wasn't clear. The effect while minimal was significant to those killed and the families of those killed. It irks me when people dismiss that so casually.
Maybe I should have said it that simply to begin with.
Not even trying to argue for their inclusion.
RE: Japanese Balloon Bombs
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:03 pm
by rtrapasso
The effect while minimal was significant to those killed and the families of those killed. It irks me when people dismiss that so casually.
So are traffic accidents... it irks me when people dismiss THOSE so casually.
EDIT: i am not trying to provoke a flame war... however, let's keep things in context in the overall scheme of things. Traffic accidents, aircraft accidents, train accidents, hits by lightning were all a lot more important in the overall scheme of things, and each one is/was a tragedy for the people involved.