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after more than month of playing Aleutian scenario my pilots flying zeroes can´t shoot down single enemyE bomber...even if the ratio was 20 zeroes against 4 unescorted liberators...similar situation is with Zeroes agaist venturas or mitchells...

The Japanese got fed up, too, and designed some interceptors.

Yeh, I have been reading Downfall - the end of the imperial Japanese empire and it gives numerous examples of bombing raids which flew right thru enemy cap without losing a plane but then losing b-29s to cap over the tagrget. Very depressing if your Japan[:D]

4Es are tough to begin wtih. Most of them can fly home on 2 engines, and some only need 1. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.

Bottom line is, if Japan had a similar design in production (G5N, G8N) they would have likely been effective as well.

4 engines vs 2 makes a hugh difference in wether a plane survives the bombing raid or not.

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.

I don't have the link anymore (computer crashed) but you should read the real story of that crew, it is even more unbelieveable then the one on TV, that wasn't the only mission that crew flew like that (well, that was the worse one, but others were pretty wild also)

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same none 4E going down

...and finally Ki-84b with 4x20mm cannons...the same results...
all test were made on aleutian scenario...

It was B-17E Old 666 serial numbers 12666 and this mission occured on June 16 1943 or June 17th [:)]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.

I don't have the link anymore (computer crashed) but you should read the real story of that crew, it is even more unbelieveable then the one on TV, that wasn't the only mission that crew flew like that (well, that was the worse one, but others were pretty wild also)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

The Mapping Mission
On June 16 1943 a request went out for a special mission, a single ship unescorted mapping mission over hostile territory. Capt. Zeamer and crew eagerly volunteered.

Taking off at 4 A.M. to make use of darkness to cover at least part of the mission 'Old 666' and crew headed for Bougainville, where they were instructed to make a reconnaissance of the Japanese airfield there to determine logistics and enemy strength.

The flight would require flying over 600 miles of open sea to even reach the target. By 7:40 AM with only 22 minutes of flight-time remaining to complete his mission, Old 666 was intercepted by no less than 17 Japanese fighters (15 A6M Zeros & 2 Ki-46 Dinahs) of the 251st Kokutai Squadron, commanded by Chief Flight Petty Officer Yoshio Ooki.[2]

After making a pass at the heavily armed tail the fighters came in against the normally lightly armed nose only to find that this specific bomber possessed much heavier forward firepower, resulting in two A6M Zeros being shot down. However, 20mm cannon shells from a third Zero smashed into the cockpit and nose wounding both Zeamer and Sarnoski before being shot down itself. Sarnoski crawled out of the nose to seek first aid attention but when a Ki-46 Dinah led a second wave of fighters to attack nose on he returned to his guns, shot it down and then shortly thereafter collapsed.[1]

The second wave knocked out the oxygen system and forced the bomber to dive from 25,000 ft to 10,000 ft, where the crew could breathe normally, in just a matter of seconds.

By 8:45 AM the American bomber was over open seas and the enemy fighters, low on ammunition and fuel, were forced to turn back to Bougainville, most of the crew had been wounded in varying degrees and the aircraft was shot full of holes. It was during the return flight that Zeamer lost consciousness and Sarnoski, still manning his guns, died.

Upon landing the co-pilot told the ground crews, "Get the pilot last. He's dead!" He was not, and Zeamer lived to receive the Medal of Honor, but Sarnoski's Medal of Honor was awarded posthumously. In one of the most decorated flights in history, the rest of the entire crew received Distinguished Service Crosses.[3] This mission was featured on the episode "Long Odds" on the History Channel show Dogfights.

Hell of a story. Bunch of brave guys.

ORIGINAL: hmota

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same none 4E going down

I shoot down the occasional 4EB with almost anything - even a Rufe - though I mostly get "fighter can't catch bomber" messages ... same with Claudes. They can be shot down - but not in huge numbers. You will however, damage them, and if they get enough damage, it can take a loooong time for them to get repaired - the aircraft repair process is totally difference in AE. So Allied players flying lots of unescorted 4EB raids against fighter opposition, may not see lots of their 4EB getting shot down, but they will see the number of offline aircraft build up.

. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.

This wasn't introduced to kill the pilots - which was a good side effect - but to avoid the defensive fire. Attacking from the front left just a few heartbeats for the countless cal. 0.50 MGs to kill the German fighter.
Using the Mk-108, there was no need to hit a pilot. Usually, 3 to 4 hits anywhere were enough to kill a 4e.

thanks to sweden for the link. realy amazing story.

. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.

If I remember well, british pilots did the same thing during Battle of Britain. And they also targeted the formation leader in order to desorganize the formation/ bombing.

It was not fair play at all [:D]

It was not fair play at all

Its war! How can killing someone you don't even know, you don't have a quarrel with and who doesn't intend to enslave you ever be fair?

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Its war! How can killing someone you don't even know, you don't have a quarrel with and who doesn't intend to enslave you ever be fair?

I was ironic Thorsten [;)]

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]

the crossbow was unchristianic and just to be used against moslems [;)]

Zero has 2 popguns and 2 20mm with lousy ammo capacity for the latter, so not surprising.

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]

Why was it that the allies never used one of their AA guns in a similar fashion ?