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Mika Valiviita managed to discover the code in the EXE file that determines when the game ends. As it originally stood, the game ended, no matter what, in January 1946. Now, the game ends, no matter what, in January 1947. What this means, is that the US is given an extra year in which to overcome Japan, and allows for a possible historic invasion taking place in 1946.

Also, it means that it is a lot harder for the Japanese to win an attrition war, or an Armistice, since in 1946 the disparity between Allied forces and Japanese forces becomes extremely high.

Here are some extra things that you will see in 2.4 1946 version...

New Ships

USN
Midway Class (Midway, F.D.Roosevelt)
Essex Class (Valley Forge, Tarawa, Boxer)
Baltimore Class (Oregon City)
Cleveland Class (Fargo, Huntington)
Gearing Class (+20 more ships)

IJN
Unryu Class (Aso, Ikoma)
Matsu Class (+16 more ships)

The USN recieves 4 more CV, 1 more CA, 2 more CL and 20+ more DD while the IJN recieves 2 more CV and 16+ more DE. There were many more Essex Class Carriers in service at the time, however, these served in the Atlantic, and it is assumed that if the war should last into 1946 there would still be a need to have a fleet presence in the Atlantic (since none of these extra CV's served in the Pacific until the 1950's)


New Aircraft

USAAC
P-80 Shooting Star (Jet Fighter)
Meteor III (Jet Fighter)

IJAAF
Kikka (Jet Fighter/Bomber)
Ki-115 Tsurugi (Kamikaze fighter)

IJNAF
J7M Shinden
A7M Reppu (Carrier Fighter, Japan's Hellcat)


This will result in the loss of certain aircraft, notably Transport Groups and Aircraft Types (to cover the need for new aircraft spaces to fill in the air groups of the 6 new Fleet Carriers, as well as to add new aircraft types).

Jeremy,

Sounds great to me. And a Bravo Zulu to Mika Valiviita for finding the code that lets you do this. The loss of the transport groups and aircraft types is no big deal to me. Can't wait to play ver 2.4!

Question: will the F7F Tigercat, A1D Skyraider and P-82 Twin Mustang also be available?

Originally posted by tanjman
Jeremy,

Sounds great to me. And a Bravo Zulu to Mika Valiviita for finding the code that lets you do this. The loss of the transport groups and aircraft types is no big deal to me. Can't wait to play ver 2.4!

Question: will the F7F Tigercat, A1D Skyraider and P-82 Twin Mustang also be available?

Elimintating the transport groups will give the US another free space for an extra aircraft, and the Japanese two free spaces for aircraft. Others could be freed by eliminating redundant types (possibly the Kittyhawk IIB, Ki-48-II if we can crack the aircraft upgrade code).

I will see how much space for new aircraft is left over. It is quite possible that the A1D Skyraider will be in the game, but the other two might be cut due to their limited production (300 for the P-82 and less then 500 of the F7F). The F8F and the A7M, already in 2.3, will have a lot more use in 2.4 since they can reach levels of production that result in them actually being used! It is difficult to say what else would have been developed had the war lasted into 1946, but chances are that there will be limited types of new aircraft (notice that the F6F did not get a replacement until 1945 with the F8F, with a good 2 years between the two).

Hi, I think it will be hard to find PBEM Japanese but for anyone wanting to be US in 2.4 I will gladly play Japan. I don't mind losing I enjoy playing. I will still try to win before 43 but I will not resign the game if that fails. 2.4 should prove to be much more acurate even if this means Japans position related to game victory conditions suffers. Lets face it Japanese players who fail to force early end rarly bother to finish game in hope of a draw.
Against the AI the Allies win before mid 44 so the new stuff won't matter. Japan versus Allied AI will be interesting. But it is only in human versus human that the new AC and ships will ever be used. Anyone care for a really long PBEM game once this comes out contact me. I will be anyside but also will not surrender early if I am Japan. I will make you force it!!!

Hey Mogami, I'll play ya a game. You can get a hold of me at leswanson67@aol.com or through one of my IM's listed in my profile.

Hope to hear from you soon!!!:D

Jeremy,

I understand about the F7F and the P-82, and that there are only so many slots available. I'm sure what ever you decide will work just fine.

I will see how much space for new aircraft is left over. It is quite possible that the A1D Skyraider will be in the game, but the other two might be cut due to their limited production (300 for the P-82 and less then 500 of the F7F).

And yet even 300 is still much more than the combined production of Kikkas, Shindens, and A7Ms, so surely there must be more to it than that! But if we get to vote, I'd rather have some of the "ultimate" versions of the WW2 mainstays (say, the F4U-4, P-51H, and P-47N) than the F7F or P-82. The AD-1 would be very nice, though.

The USN recieves 4 more CV, 1 more CA, 2 more CL and 20+ more DD while the IJN recieves 2 more CV and 16+ more DE. There were many more Essex Class Carriers in service at the time, however, these served in the Atlantic, and it is assumed that if the war should last into 1946 there would still be a need to have a fleet presence in the Atlantic (since none of these extra CV's served in the Pacific until the 1950's)

If signs had pointed toward a longer war than historical, the great shipbuilding slowdown of 1944 probably would not have occurred - at least, not in 1944. So we might see, for example, one or two more Iowas and another Alaska (but probably still no Montanas), plus half a dozen or more "extra" Essexes (the ones built historically, but reflecting the wartime building pace which averaged ~20 mo from laying the keel to commissioning rather than the more leisurely ~30 mo for the ships commissioned postwar), as well as various CAs, CLs, DDs, and subs coming down the ways in 45-46.

The USN would likely have continued to center its Atlantic presence on CVEs (and the occasional very old BB) as long as the war dragged on in the Pacific, just because there was no threat in the Atlantic that required the attention of the fast carriers. Note that Ranger CV-4 was the only fleet CV in the Atlantic from 1942 on, and wasn't replaced when she left that duty to serve as a training CV.

If the game does drag on to Jan 1 1947, the US player probably needs all the extra help he can get.

Originally posted by CynicAl
And yet even 300 is still much more than the combined production of Kikkas, Shindens, and A7Ms, so surely there must be more to it than that! But if we get to vote, I'd rather have some of the "ultimate" versions of the WW2 mainstays (say, the F4U-4, P-51H, and P-47N) than the F7F or P-82. The AD-1 would be very nice, though.

However, the Japanese planned to mass produce the Shindens, A7M's and were stopped by the end of the war (planned to produce thousands)

The F7F production numbers were slated at around 500 and the P-82 at less then 300 (this was before the war ended). So, even though fewer Japanese planes were built, they planned to build more then the F7F or P-82.

It is possible to have the P-51H Mustang and P-47N Thunderbolt, but I have to see if they are significantly different from the P-51D and P-47D to warrant the creation of a new aircraft type. Same with the F4U.

Originally posted by CynicAl
If signs had pointed toward a longer war than historical, the great shipbuilding slowdown of 1944 probably would not have occurred - at least, not in 1944. So we might see, for example, one or two more Iowas and another Alaska (but probably still no Montanas), plus half a dozen or more "extra" Essexes (the ones built historically, but reflecting the wartime building pace which averaged ~20 mo from laying the keel to commissioning rather than the more leisurely ~30 mo for the ships commissioned postwar), as well as various CAs, CLs, DDs, and subs coming down the ways in 45-46.

The USN would likely have continued to center its Atlantic presence on CVEs (and the occasional very old BB) as long as the war dragged on in the Pacific, just because there was no threat in the Atlantic that required the attention of the fast carriers. Note that Ranger CV-4 was the only fleet CV in the Atlantic from 1942 on, and wasn't replaced when she left that duty to serve as a training CV.

If the game does drag on to Jan 1 1947, the US player probably needs all the extra help he can get.

Actually, the US planned for a long war up until Japan surrendered. Since there were only 2 atomic bombs, and if Japan did not surrender the invasion would have had to take place. So, the US would have maintained the same production level as they did, since they did not know wether or not they would be at war in 1946 or not.

The USS Illinois had its keel laid in January 1945, which means it would not have been completed until 1948 (no matter how much you work, a battleship takes 3 years!). The USS Kentucky faced the same fate as the Shiano. Work was repeatedly started and stopped throughout the war (the first pause was in 1942, restarted in December 1944). Had the war continued into 1946, neither of the two last Iowa battleships would have been available until 1948.

Now, the USS Hawaii could have been finished, as it was launched in March 1945, and since the others were comissioned approximately 1 year after launching, the USS Hawaii could have appeared in the middle of 1946.

The USS Montana class battleships were cancelled in 1943, and as you say, would not have participated in the war.


The limitation of the 4 carriers is due primarily to two things, one is that the game cannot handle the loss of 12 more LBA groups to fill up the 4 carriers, and, the USN DID keep these Carriers in the Atlantic (as at least one, Lake Champlain) when the war was still going on with Japan. The USS Lake Champlain immediately began duties in the Atlantic after working up, this being in the last few weeks of the war. Other CV's were immediatley dispatched to the Pacific. Had there been no limitations due to aircraft group spaces I would have been more then happy to add 4 CV's, but since the game is severely limited in this aspect, arguing for more Essex class ships is somewhat mute.

A word of note on adding new plane types:

along with the game limitations as far as slots available goes, keep in mind about how many can be viewed at one time. I just ran into the problem of not being able to upgrade my USN VF squadrons from F4U/F6F's to F8F's because the F8F's were out of range to be displayed. The fix I used was to exchange an older type (Hawk 75-A in slot 6) that was higher up with the lower slotted F8F (in slot 26). I solved the problem short term, but I'm going to restart a game to see how the upgrade works.

I also noticed that I couldn't work with P40E's after a certain point, and the same F8F problem happened with the P-61's

my vote for an additional aircraft goes to the AD-1. by the time it comes out, it is just what the allies need, a great naval/marine bomber. with 4 20MM guns, 8000 lb bomb load and a very long range( in pacwar terms probably 8), and extremely durable.

My vote goes for including the A-1 SkyRaider (A-1 is the later "unified" designation, but you can call it AD1 in the game). That plane served all the way through vietnam.

Is there a way to up the Japanese "kill points ratio" to something like 2.5 for 1946? Also is there a way to lower the carrier cost of US CVs to 2 for 1945-46?

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard


However, the Japanese planned to mass produce the Shindens, A7M's and were stopped by the end of the war (planned to produce thousands)

The F7F production numbers were slated at around 500 and the P-82 at less then 300 (this was before the war ended). So, even though fewer Japanese planes were built, they planned to build more then the F7F or P-82.

I don't have a source handy for the number of F7Fs ordered (they might never have entered large-scale production due to certain difficulties landing them aboard ship - then again, the Marines might have liked them), but I do have a source for the P-82 which shows a solid 500 P-82Bs ordered before VJ Day, with the possibility of more to follow. Not too bad in the context of other "specialist" types such as the P-61 (of which 1077 were ordered, and 601 completed by war's end). But as I said before, I wouldn't miss these two types overmuch if they didn't make the cut for v2.4. Which, I admit, does raise the question of why I'm even bothering to argue about it... :rolleyes:

It is possible to have the P-51H Mustang and P-47N Thunderbolt, but I have to see if they are significantly different from the P-51D and P-47D to warrant the creation of a new aircraft type. Same with the F4U.

Well, obviously I'd say they are, but somehow I don't think that's going to suffice. So. The P-47N was the the long-range version of the P-47 developed just for the Pacific with increased fuel tankage (actually giving it slightly longer legs than the P-51D), and also incorporated other late improvements which somewhat increased speed and maneuverability (especially rate of roll); in game terms, the P-47N should have a slightly higher MVR rating and a much longer range than the P-47D. The P-51H was completely redesigned, much lighter and with an uprated engine, it was possibly the fastest piston-engined fighter in history (almost as fast at altitude as the P-80A); in game terms, a rather higher MVR rating, but slightly reduced range and durability compared to the P-51D. The F4U-4 was, by contrast with the others, a less revolutionary development of the Corsair, but still a good 15% faster than the F4U-1; in game terms, this type should have a slightly improved MVR rating, and probably a somewhat higher load rating (reflecting not so much a difference from the F4U-1 to the F4U-4, but a considerable difference, especially in how they were used, from their early service to Okinawa and beyond). Perhaps most important (in this context), all three of these types were ordered in the thousands - a couple of thousand F4U-4s, over 1500 P-47Ns, and 500 P-51Hs even got built.

Upon consideration, while the Skyraider would be nice to have, the first production models weren't ready until November of 1946. While this could possibly have been shortened somewhat given the impetus of a continuing war, the problems revealed during service trials of the prototypes were severe, rendering the type unfit for service until corrections could be made.

On the other hand, I believe VMF-124 was operational with the F4U-1 on 28 Dec 1942, and in combat on 11 Feb 1943. In v2.3, the F4U doesn't become available for production until 28 March 1943. An easy enough edit, it's true, but perhaps in v2.4... ?

Using Mika's editor here is what I have done so far...

Removed the following...

- P-40C Warhawk
- Hurricane IIC
- Hawk 75-A
- Kittyhawk II
- Boomerang I (by the time these aircraft were produced in high numbers there were sufficient P-40's and P-47's, only a few hundred built, and mainly used for rear area duty)
- C-47 Dakota (removed all transport aircraft)
- Ki-54 and Ki-47 (removed all transport aircraft)
- Ki-48-II

- I was contemplating removing the TBM Avenger, because the research I have done on it does not have much of a difference between the two types, and was merely a change of production companies (unlike the FM2 and F4F which had different weaponry, range and other specs).

- I am seriously considering removing the Catalina I.

Changed the following

- P-40E Warhawk to P-40 Warhawk (the P-40E was the main plane used in 1941, and along with the F, was the main plane used throughout the war, the P-40N was used primarily as a trainer, I decided to change the clarification back to general P-40 to symbolize the use of the P-40E and F versions).

- Hurricane IIB to Hurricane II (I combined both hurricanes into one. The differences between the IIB and IIC was small enough to warrant the combination of the aircraft types into one). I changed the Hurricane II back to a Fighter Bomber.


Added the following

- J7M Shinden (Fighter)
- Kikka (Jet Dive Bomber)
- Ki-83 (Fighter)
- A7M2 Reppu (Fighter bomber, comparable to the F6F)
- P-51B Mustang (Used in Burma)
- P-51D Mustang
- P-51H Mustang
- P-47N Thunderbolt
- P-80 Shooting Star

- I do not think that I will have the F4U-4 in the game, and just leave it at the F4U. The reasoning is, is the difference between a generic F4U, and a specialist plane is not great enough to warrant the creation of a specialist. The P-51 versions change drastically in armament, range, and durability, the same with the P-47 versions. I removed the P-40 and Hurricane specialist types as their differences were small as well.


The F7F is a possibility, along with a few other ideas: Gloster Meteor, Beaufighter VIF (fighter bomber version of the Beaufighter), Ki-201 (IJAAF version of the Kikka/Me 262, but a fighter version), Ki-115 (IJAAF cheap, unarmed kamikaze plane, don't know how the AI will handle this), G8M (Planned 4 engined bomber, cancelled by the end of the war)



What I want to do is to have as many aircraft types in the game as possible, and only including sub-types (i.e., P-51B, P-51D, P-51H) if the differences between them and the main type produced was significant.

I have changed some upgrade paths as well.

- The B-24 was used in action throughout the war, and I removed the auto-upgrade to the B-29.

- P-38 to P-47. Most of the P-38/P-39 groups upgraded to the P-47, not the P-51 as the game had them originally do.

- B-18 Bolo to B-17. The 11th BG upgrded from B-18's to B-17's, while the 28th BG upgraded to B-26 from B-18's. You can manually change the 28th BG to B-26's, but not the 11th BG to B-17's.

- Blenheim IF to Hurricane II. The Blenheim IF squadron changed aircraft to Hurricane II's when it was reformed.

- Ki-45 to the Ki-83. The Ki-83 was deemed to be the most advanced twin engined fighter produced in Japan, and possibly in the Pacific. It has stupendous armament (2x 20mm and 2x 30mm) as well as great speed and manoverability as well as high durability. When/if this plane gets into production it will be a good B-29 killer.

- The game had the Ki-27 upgrade to the Ki-43-II, and the Ki-43 upgrade to the Ki-44... Now, my understanding is that most Ki-27 were changed to the Ki-43, and most Ki-43 upgraded to Ki-43-II's...

- The A6M5 upgrades to the A7M2. The game had the A6M5 being produced forever, but had the A7M reached production levels above one, it would have replaced all A6M production and usage.

Fair enough.

I am a little confused by this..

The first post lists 5 new US carriers and the summary says "The USN receives 4 more CV"

Then later in another post it seems the 4 new CV aren't in the game : "one is that the game cannot handle the loss of 12 more LBA groups to fill up the 4 carriers"

So are the new carriers added or not? And does this mean the hard limit of 12 US CV's is removed or upped to 16?

I’m figuring on at least a couple more games before WiTP comes out in the winter/spring...

cheers!

Jeremy, thanks for your continuing efforts with this game. And, for what it's worth, I'd like to place a vote for the inclusion of the F7F if possible.

and all this means the ''L3Ytina'' in the allied pool is no more , guud

Originally posted by stretch
I am a little confused by this..

The first post lists 5 new US carriers and the summary says "The USN receives 4 more CV"

Then later in another post it seems the 4 new CV aren't in the game : "one is that the game cannot handle the loss of 12 more LBA groups to fill up the 4 carriers"

So are the new carriers added or not? And does this mean the hard limit of 12 US CV's is removed or upped to 16?

I’m figuring on at least a couple more games before WiTP comes out in the winter/spring...

cheers!

Just a typo on my part. There will be 5 new USN CV's, but theoretically, by 1947, there were 9 new CV"s. So 4 will not be in the game (due to limitations). So, along with the 2 new IJN CV's, (which makes a total of 7 new ones from the original 2.4 version) I managed to scrape together 14 air group spaces, which is the limit to which I can shorten the files.