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Never had this level of success with them in PBEM. I sent them from Manilla to a Sen Fernando which is 1 hex from some of the Japanese landing sites. There they refueled and I put them on 6 hex reaction reaction.
Another group was fromed up in Pearl and sent north where the Japanese KB forces were still hanging around. I caught their refueling fleet completly by blind luck.

This is four seperate combats and will forever be known as a night of terror for the IJN and a night of heroes for the USN

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PB Chohakusan Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Daisin Maru, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Misaki Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33
PT-34
PT-35
PT-41
PT Q-111
PT Q-112
PT Q-113

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 8 (1 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Vehicles lost 6 (0 destroyed, 6 disabled)



Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends unloading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 57% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 57% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Ferrandiz T. gains tactical advantage
PT Q-113 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 1,000 yards
xAK Daisin Maru sunk by PT Q-113 at 1,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Misaki Maru at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Chohakusan Maru engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Misaki Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-31 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-112 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-35 engages PB Chohakusan Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PB Chohakusan Maru engages PT Q-113 at 3,000 yards
PB Chohakusan Maru engages PT-35 at 3,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Misaki Maru at 3,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Yasuteru Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAP Terukuni Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
PB Rokko Maru #2, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33
PT-34
PT-35
PT-41
PT Q-111
PT Q-112
PT Q-113

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)



Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends unloading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 57% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 57% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
PT Q-113 engages PB Rokko Maru #2 at 1,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT Q-112 at 1,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 1,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT-41 at 1,000 yards
PT-32 engages PB Rokko Maru #2 at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
xAK Yasuteru Maru sunk by PT-31 at 2,000 yards
PB Rokko Maru #2 engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PT-35 engages xAP Terukuni Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages PB Rokko Maru #2 at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Banshu Maru #56
xAKL Choun Maru #21, Shell hits 1, on fire
xAK Tokusima Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Kosei Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Yamagiku Maru, Shell hits 23, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Toyokawa Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Arizama Maru
xAK Aki Maru, Shell hits 3
xAK Chowa Maru, Shell hits 5, on fire
xAKL Jinsan Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Koyo Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Mansei Maru
xAKL Oridono Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Soyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Satsuma Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Sugiyama Maru
xAKL Tensyo Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Tsuyama Maru
xAKL Tohuku Maru
xAK Ueizuru Maru, Shell hits 11, heavy fires
xAK Unkai Maru #6, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAKL Yosyu Maru

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33
PT-34
PT-35
PT-41
PT Q-111
PT Q-112
PT Q-113

Japanese ground losses:
1069 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 32 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)



Reduced sighting due to 57% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 57% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
xAKL Jinsan Maru collides with xAK Toyokawa Maru at 80 , 73
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 1,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 1,000 yards
xAK Toyokawa Maru sunk by PT-41 at 1,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Satsuma Maru at 1,000 yards
PT-34 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 1,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Chowa Maru at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-32 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Aki Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Tokusima Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Oridono Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-41 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-35 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-34 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Tohuku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Choun Maru #21 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-34 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Chowa Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Kosei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Oridono Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Sugiyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-35 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Aki Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Satsuma Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Tensyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Jinsan Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-112 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Mansei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-32 engages xAK Koyo Maru at 2,000 yards
Ferrandiz T. orders Allied TF to disengage
PT Q-111 engages xAK Koyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-41 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-32 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Tohuku Maru at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...



Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 180,104, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Amagiri
DD Akebono
AO Kokuyo Maru, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
AO Kyokuto Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AO Nippon Maru
AO Shinkoku Maru, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
AO Toei Maru, Shell hits 7, heavy fires
AO Toho Maru, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

Allied Ships
PT-20
PT-21
PT-22
PT-23
PT-24
PT-25
PT-26
PT-27
PT-28
PT-29
PT-30, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT-42



Low visibility due to Rain with 57% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 57% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
DD Amagiri engages PT-42 at 1,000 yards
PT-30 engages AO Toho Maru at 1,000 yards
PT-28 engages AO Toho Maru at 1,000 yards
PT-26 engages AO Toei Maru at 1,000 yards
PT-24 engages AO Toho Maru at 1,000 yards
AO Toho Maru sunk by PT-21 at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
DD Akebono engages PT-42 at 2,000 yards
PT-30 sunk by DD Amagiri at 2,000 yards
PT-29 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-27 engages AO Nippon Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-22 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-20 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
DD Akebono engages PT-42 at 2,000 yards
PT-29 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-28 engages AO Toei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-27 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Nippon Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-25 engages AO Kyokuto Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-24 engages AO Kyokuto Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-22 engages AO Kyokuto Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-21 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
AO Toei Maru screened from combat
DD Akebono engages PT-42 at 2,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages PT-42 at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Nippon Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-25 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-24 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
AO Kyokuto Maru sunk by PT-23 at 2,000 yards
PT-21 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
AO Toei Maru , AO Shinkoku Maru , AO Nippon Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Akebono
DD Amagiri engages PT-29 at 2,000 yards
PT-22 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-29 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-26 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-28 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-20 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-29 engages AO Toei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-42 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-26 engages AO Nippon Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-25 engages AO Kokuyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-22 engages AO Toei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-20 engages AO Toei Maru at 2,000 yards
Szukalski, H.O. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 3,000 yards
DD Akebono engages PT-42 at 3,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages PT-42 at 3,000 yards
PT-20 engages AO Shinkoku Maru at 3,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Most Ausome indeed.  Really tore up some invasion forces in the Phillipines and DEI.  Maybe a bit too much so.  I suspect they will be toned down in the patch.  

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Most Ausome indeed.  Really tore up some invasion forces in the Phillipines and DEI.  Maybe a bit too much so.  I suspect they will be toned down in the patch.  

My opponent had a few choice words about the entire matter. Not printable im afraid.

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Most Ausome indeed.  Really tore up some invasion forces in the Phillipines and DEI.  Maybe a bit too much so.  I suspect they will be toned down in the patch.  

My opponent had a few choice words about the entire matter. Not printable im afraid.

If he was such a moron as to send along his invasion fleet UNESCORTED like this, he deserves to get his butt handed to him.

Personally, I'd like to see PT Boats restricted from operating in any "all-sea" hexes. Historically they operated in coastal regions, not far out to sea. Also worth noting that "Destroyers" is a contraction of the original name for this ship class - "Torpedo Boat Destroyers". So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded.

3 of the 4 combats were in coastal hexes and he had patrol boats with his invasion forces. It just so happened that the combination of weather, moonlight and night made all combats at 1,000 yards. Against unloading forces with no radar it would be very very hard to pick up PT boats contrasted against a land background moving at 30+ knots.
The PT boats did not mess around either. As soon as they entered combat they volleyed all their torpedoes and scored hits. Only then did the escorts engage them.

I got very lucky and my opponent very unlucky.

ORIGINAL: Kull

Personally, I'd like to see PT Boats restricted from operating in any "all-sea" hexes. Historically they operated in coastal regions, not far out to sea. ...

So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded.

Agreed on both points. PT's were not blue water vessels by any strectch, brown water only. In high seas they could not launch their torpedoes, nor depress their 50cal enough to maintain contact.

DD's would shred PT's once alerted to them. Far better range on their weapons...

However, PT's against AK's would be a very fair fight and the results above perfectly acheivable. Good call sending them in and the opponent will think again B4 sending unescorted AK's!

While I agree with the critique about the mid-ocean intercept of the AOs, I'm totally on board with them shredding anything unescorted in littorals. A transport fleet caught *while unloading* with no escorts is just begging to be sunk by anything.

Also, please note the PBs are not DDs. The PBs generally were much less capable escorts-slower, less armed, etc.-and should not be treated with the same differential reverence by PT boat captains as a group of DDs.

"So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded."

So why didn't that happen to the PTs at Surigao Strait?
 
That is what destroyers were originally designed to do, but by WW2 their design and purpose had changed. On top of that, just because something is designed to perform a task it doesn't mean that it will invariably perform that task to perfection...

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

However, PT's against AK's would be a very fair fight and the results above perfectly acheivable. Good call sending them in and the opponent will think again B4 sending unescorted AK's!

I'm beginning to wonder. I spent the last hour or so trolling the web looking for stats that would indicate PT Boat effectiveness, and my conclusion is that - the war on Barges excepted - they caused about as much damage as midget subs. Just try and find ANY proven, documented success against a large warship. Even one. They did have marvelous PR, but that should not translate over to in-game effectiveness. If the combat engine can't be tweaked to give them the heavy nerfing they so richly deserve, I'd recommend giving something akin to the "zero bonus" to Destroyers when facing PTs. Historically, even near misses would destroy these things.

BTW,  why do their torpedoes work and the the sub ones don't?  Different model number?  I understand that the destroyer torpedoes did not woek well either.  Of corse we don't know about the aircraft ones, they never hit much but lets assumed they worked.  So, aircraft and PT boats worked,  subs and destroyers not so good?

PT boats are 77 feet long (the elco version). It is not like we are talking about inflatable rafts.
I have been aboard one. I am not saying they are massive but a 77 foot vessel is much larger in real life than it is in your mind.
Also the Fubuki DDs by WW2 were not state of the art. The 12.7 cm/50 Type 3 naval gun had a low rate of fire at 3-7 rounds a minute and since it was a heavy dual mount could only traverse at 6 degrees per second.

In a close in battle at 2,000 yards PT boats at 36 knots would be hard to hit.


Ok now I am done defending the PT boat.
My results were mostly luck. The only good move I made was sending them up the coast to San Fernando where they were only 1 hex away from the invasion beaches.

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

BTW,  why do their torpedoes work and the the sub ones don't?  Different model number?  I understand that the destroyer torpedoes did not woek well either.  Of corse we don't know about the aircraft ones, they never hit much but lets assumed they worked.  So, aircraft and PT boats worked,  subs and destroyers not so good?

PTs in the game use the Mark 8 torpedo which is a different model than Sub and DD torpedos. Not sure how effective it was in the real war.

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded."

So why didn't that happen to the PTs at Surigao Strait?

Here's the sum total of what PT Boats achieved at Surigao Strait:

Actual attacks might be thought a bit disappointing. Only two torpedoes scored.

The hit on Abukuma was an accident. The torpedo was aimed at a different target, but missed. At the time of launch Abukuma was not even visibile from the attacker, PT-137. The hit on Asagumo was obtained when the DD was already badly damaged and almost immobile. Even then, PT-323 launched three torpedoes in three separate attacks and only the last one hit. Asagumo was finished off by Destroyers.

http://www.ptboatworld.com/SurigaoStrait.html

So. They hit something they didn't aim at. And hit something else that was dead in the water, and even then had to fire three different times before finally landing a blow. And still needed help from US Destroyers to finish it off. Sure doesn't sound like the current scourge of AE. A massive amount of nerfing needs to be imposed on these overhyped, under-resulted bogeymen.

Edit: To answer your question a little more directly, the 37 PT Boats that attacked the Japanese forces at Surigao Strait were soon supported by a host of Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships (see map link below). So the IJN had other things to worry about. But in AE today, imagine the result if you sent a PT Boat TF of 37 against a Japanese force of 2 BB, 1 CA, and 4 DD? My God, the IJN would be annihilated! But in the opening attack at Surigao, the 37 achieved exactly zero hits. Their success, such as it was, came against the following group of 2 CA, 1 CL, and 8 DD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surigao_straight.jpg

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

PTs in the game use the Mark 8 torpedo which is a different model than Sub and DD torpedos. Not sure how effective it was in the real war.

The Mark 8 torpedo had issues with porpoising and circular runs, but it relied upon the Mark 3 and Mark 4 exploders which did not have the same reliabilty issue as the sub-borne Mark 14 with it's Mark 6 exploder.

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Ok now I am done defending the PT boat.
My results were mostly luck. The only good move I made was sending them up the coast to San Fernando where they were only 1 hex away from the invasion beaches.

Please understand I am not impugning you or your results in any way. The current AE system allows this travesty, and your strategy proves that you are making excellent use of the tools at hand.

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded."

So why didn't that happen to the PTs at Surigao Strait?

That is what destroyers were originally designed to do, but by WW2 their design and purpose had changed. On top of that, just because something is designed to perform a task it doesn't mean that it will invariably perform that task to perfection...

Thank you for pointing that out.

While I will dispute that a PT boat should ALWAYS be completely shredded I will also dispute that they shoud ALWAYS have great success. They couldn't stand up in a long fight but they could perform hit-and-run attacks like they did at Surigao Strait. There they performed exactly as intended by giving Oldendorf warning of the Japanese and their location. Also once they attacked they didn't stick around.

Some of these statements which use "always" brings back bad memories of when the first WITP came out and instead of trying to come to as close a realistic solution as this game allows the thread would split into AFB and JFB.

ORIGINAL: dereck

Some of these statements which use "always" brings back bad memories of when the first WITP came out and instead of trying to come to as close a realistic solution as this game allows the thread would split into AFB and JFB.

Surigao Strait indeed exemplifies their "best case" performance against warships, and it wasn't much to write home about (other than they DID serve as the trip wire to alert the rest of the Allied forces). But what we see in AE is something completely different. Single, all-PT TFs are wreaking havoc with surface combat and transport TFs alike. That simply never happened IRL. Perhaps PTs going it alone against a surface combat TF shouldn't ALWAYS be shredded, but they should ALWAYS have zero or next-to-zero hits and take some serious damage in turn.

Edit: Strike that last comment (in red). History supports the "next-to-zero" hits assertion, but not that one.

Personally, I'd like to see PT Boats restricted from operating in any "all-sea" hexes. Historically they operated in coastal regions, not far out to sea. Also worth noting that "Destroyers" is a contraction of the original name for this ship class - "Torpedo Boat Destroyers". So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded.

That is not true. PT boats operated in many places and certainly at sea.

I don't have any issue with results above except last one and even that if suprise was achieved it is okay that it could happen. It was at night.

The first ones even could happen even easily at day time.
For example how many guns in first engagement the Japanese had that can be pointed at PT's probably 2 in PB and 1 in each xAK

So when they are firing at 4 PT's there are still 5 PT's that can go around.

-----------
In Mediterranean PT boats had several success against warships and even a British Cruiser was sunk.

Here are the story of PT boats in USN

At Close Quarters
PT Boats in the United States Navy
http://funsite.unc.edu/hyperwar/USN/Clo ... html#index

ORIGINAL: dereck

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"So anytime PTs attack a TF containing Destroyers, they should be completely shredded."

So why didn't that happen to the PTs at Surigao Strait?

That is what destroyers were originally designed to do, but by WW2 their design and purpose had changed. On top of that, just because something is designed to perform a task it doesn't mean that it will invariably perform that task to perfection...

Thank you for pointing that out.

While I will dispute that a PT boat should ALWAYS be completely shredded I will also dispute that they shoud ALWAYS have great success. They couldn't stand up in a long fight but they could perform hit-and-run attacks like they did at Surigao Strait. There they performed exactly as intended by giving Oldendorf warning of the Japanese and their location. Also once they attacked they didn't stick around.

Some of these statements which use "always" brings back bad memories of when the first WITP came out and instead of trying to come to as close a realistic solution as this game allows the thread would split into AFB and JFB.

I had to post this when Kull made the comment that if DDs are present, PTs should be shredded. That was not always the case. It appears that the to hit numbers are awfully high for PT torpedoes right now (possibly for all torpedoes - folks are complaining about submarines as well, and all the WITP veterans are well aware of the aerial torpedo insanity in that version!), but this doesn't mean that the boats themselves should always be turned into toothpicks when confronted by DDs.

Keep in mind that the original Torpedo Boats that DDs were designed to confront were larger and slower than WW2 PTs, MTBs and E-boats. The slow traversing 3", 4" and 5" guns were fine against those turn of the century torpedo boats, but not nearly as effective against the highly maneuverable WW2 versions.

Surigao Strait points out that PTS weren't highly effective against capital vessels, but it also shows that DDs weren't hightly effective against the PTs.

In my CHS PBEM against ChezDaJez the PTS have been fairly reasonable. Mostly they have been destroyed in combat, but they've hit one or two BBs and one DD in nearly three years of combat. I'd like to see them survive a little better, but don't expect to see better results on their part.