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US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:53 pm
by Remenents
I sent Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp south toward Guadalcanal area. They engaged 4 (yes, FOUR) CVs that were part of ONE TF... well... the results was a slaughter of US Carriers. Here was the layout.
Sara, Yorktown, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
Enterprise, Lexington, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
Hornet, Wasp, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
3 TFs with 2-3 BBs, 1-3 CAs, 2-4 CLs, 5-8 DDs.
Day 1 - Sara and York come in range of a Japanese TF with 3 CVs (or so I thought). Aircraft attack with little results, 1 bomb hit on Kaga and Akagi. Japanese score 2 Bomb hits Sara and York and 1 torp into York.
Day 2 - All 3 US CV TFs come into range... only Enterprise, Lexington, Sara, and York launch attacks though. Shokaku and Akagi take 1 bomb apiece. Japanese attack and sink Yorktown, Lexington, and Saratoga. Enterprise escapes any damage.
Day 3 - Saratoga TF combines with Enterprise TF. Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp get attacks off. Akagi takes 2 torps, Shokaku and Zukaku take 2 bombs, Akagi takes 1. Japanese attack and sink Hornet and Wasp and Enterprise takes 4 Bombs and 2 Torps. 3 BBs are sunk.
What the heck is this crap all about?!? I had more CVs, more aircraft, more surface ships, and 2 airfields full of aircraft (Port Moresby and Guadalcanal)... how in the world did they manage to do THAT much destruction?? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all!
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:56 pm
by scott64
Two words..coordination penalty or whatever it is called. [:)]
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:57 pm
by Remenents
Its not like they were all stacked onto one another in the same hex... they were within 2-4 hexes of eachother, so I dont see how I would get a penalty. I am screwed now pretty much lol. Leaves me a few UK CVs really.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:04 pm
by Historiker
Great results [:D]
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:04 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: Remenents
I sent Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp south toward Guadalcanal area. They engaged 4 (yes, FOUR) CVs that were part of ONE TF... well... the results was a slaughter of US Carriers. Here was the layout.
Sara, Yorktown, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
Enterprise, Lexington, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
Hornet, Wasp, 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD.
3 TFs with 2-3 BBs, 1-3 CAs, 2-4 CLs, 5-8 DDs.
Day 1 - Sara and York come in range of a Japanese TF with 3 CVs (or so I thought). Aircraft attack with little results, 1 bomb hit on Kaga and Akagi. Japanese score 2 Bomb hits Sara and York and 1 torp into York.
Day 2 - All 3 US CV TFs come into range... only Enterprise, Lexington, Sara, and York launch attacks though. Shokaku and Akagi take 1 bomb apiece. Japanese attack and sink Yorktown, Lexington, and Saratoga. Enterprise escapes any damage.
Day 3 - Saratoga TF combines with Enterprise TF. Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp get attacks off. Akagi takes 2 torps, Shokaku and Zukaku take 2 bombs, Akagi takes 1. Japanese attack and sink Hornet and Wasp and Enterprise takes 4 Bombs and 2 Torps. 3 BBs are sunk.
What the heck is this crap all about?!? I had more CVs, more aircraft, more surface ships, and 2 airfields full of aircraft (Port Moresby and Guadalcanal)... how in the world did they manage to do THAT much destruction?? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all!
HISTORY
The IJN had a developed doctrine for offensive multi-carrier operations. (It wasn't that sharp in defensive operations.) The USN wasn't sure carriers should even operate together. You brought a knife to a gun-fight.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
by Remenents
So basically, I just lost my 6 Pearl-based carriers because I operated them together instead of in seperate TFs? That doesnt make full sense, especially since later the US was operating 3, 4, 5 times that in one TF... of course, this is early in the war, so I guess they havent come up with the tactics needed yet? Damn it, this sucks.
Still though, I should have been able to at least sink ONE of them, or at least do enough damage to it that they would be out of action for a while...
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:12 pm
by anarchyintheuk
Probably need more info re settings, location, etc. Several factors can influence cv combat, including, but not limited to, the following:
1) CVTF leadership, make sure you have good admirals
2) Squadron leadership, as above
3) Assuming it's 42 some or all of your cvtfs were hit by the coordination penalty for >100 planes in a cvtf
4) Fatigue on your fighters is crucual. If it was high prior to combat your fighters would have been much less effective
5) Triple check your range and mission settings. I once went into a witp cv combat w/ my fighter ranges still set at 1
6) 1st div of the KB has really good pilots, they're good at torpedo attacks and their torpedoes actually work
7) You faced the most durable carriers the IJN has to offer
8) If you were facing the ai on very hard iirc it gets combat bonuses
9) PM and Guadacanal ac were probably out of range or didn't have sufficient cajones or escort to engage
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:23 pm
by Remenents
They were not fatigued, they just came from Pearl Harbor to Sydney for fuel then up to PM aea. TFs had goo leaders, Spruence, Fletcher ect..., Squadrons I didnt check (oops), range settings were all ok, I remember setting them. I understand those were some of the best carriers they could thorw at me... but I felt like it was a Midway Battle, but in reverse and catastrophic for the Allies.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:25 pm
by Historiker
see it positive: The game stays interesting for a longer time [;)]
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:28 pm
by Montbrun
The use of the term "Task Force" in WitP is kind of misleading - we're actually creating and using "Task Groups" - smaller subdivisions of a Task Force. Also, you've been a victim of doctrine - early-war the Japanese had already developed their carrier doctrine and use - we were still trying to work one out...
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:29 pm
by Remenents
Lol. Ya, no kidding. Should be fun to see how THIS turns out...
I was hoping for a Midway repeat down here, since they failed to actually show up in Midway area for some reason. I really needed a showdown with them, only, this was no where near what I was hoping for. Well, guess I will just have to hope my airfields can deal with them, or my subs or surface TFs HAH!
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:32 pm
by Shark7
This is the reason you won't see many allied players put 2 carriers in 1 task force. They suffer a coordination penalty and generally operate poorly when grouped together.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:35 pm
by Remenents
I didnt know that. I still have alot to learn. I might just reload my save when the carriers got to sydney are reform the TFs and try again. Cause that was a total slaughter... Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, only in reverse and it wasnt in the Marianas.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:00 pm
by witpqs
Look at the bright side: you still have Long Island!
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:02 pm
by scott64
ORIGINAL: Remenents
I didnt know that. I still have alot to learn. I might just reload my save when the carriers got to sydney are reform the TFs and try again. Cause that was a total slaughter... Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, only in reverse and it wasnt in the Marianas.
Try running away until late 42/ early 43 or at least until you upgrade to better planes. [8D]
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:12 pm
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: scott1964
ORIGINAL: Remenents
I didnt know that. I still have alot to learn. I might just reload my save when the carriers got to sydney are reform the TFs and try again. Cause that was a total slaughter... Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, only in reverse and it wasnt in the Marianas.
Try running away until late 42/ early 43 or at least until you upgrade to better planes. [8D]
You can fight KB early, but you have to be really smart about it. Best to have it move into an area where you have good LBA to help deal with it. You almost have to overwhelm its CAP...at least in vanilla you did, that probably still holds true.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:15 pm
by Historiker
ORIGINAL: witpqs
Look at the bright side: you still have Long Island!
[:D][:D][:D]
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:20 pm
by Remenents
ORIGINAL: Shark7
ORIGINAL: scott1964
ORIGINAL: Remenents
I didnt know that. I still have alot to learn. I might just reload my save when the carriers got to sydney are reform the TFs and try again. Cause that was a total slaughter... Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, only in reverse and it wasnt in the Marianas.
Try running away until late 42/ early 43 or at least until you upgrade to better planes. [8D]
You can fight KB early, but you have to be really smart about it. Best to have it move into an area where you have good LBA to help deal with it. You almost have to overwhelm its CAP...at least in vanilla you did, that probably still holds true.
I have no idea what KB is or LBA lol.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:29 pm
by Barb
KB - Kido Butai - 1st Carrier Fleet (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku)
LBA - Land Based Aircraft
If you are going to refight the battle make 6 TFs each with one carrier + 2-3 CAs 1-2 CLs and 6+DDs (BBs could be left behind as they are slow, or you could try to hunt KB with them while you preocuppy it with your carriers, or could be used to cover your carriers against surface combat).
You also need to have all your carriers in the same hex.
RE: US Carriers massacred?!?
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:31 pm
by Remenents
In the same hex? Wouldnt I get a stacking penalty? I will need to also bring in some extra ships from Pearl, dont have enough near Sydney to make that many TFs if I use the BBs.