Matrix Games Forums

Hi all, and I do not wish to irritate old wounds on supply.

Just to be clear on this -- I've searched and read, and partially understood all the supply threads here and at GS -- and I'm not asking about the usual suspects --1%/'how can they still...'/etc. Great issues, already well-written up, but they are not what I'm looking at.

I'm asking about where the formations come into this supply distribution thing.

Here are my questions and below is my labored summary of supply distribution (representing long hours counting hexes from the 20 circle to the 5 circle, and asking how come ?).

1. So, where does the formation fit into this supply distribution ?

2. Does the unit pick up supply from the supply distribution net without using the formation ?

3. Since adjacency to cooperative HQs improves supply distribution effeciency, does Formation Support Level impact supply distribution ? (Example : Sicily 1943 -- US units at Force Support, British units at Force support; the location of III/30 US Inf next to HQ BR 13 Corps. My read is that there is no boost to the US unit's supply from this adjacency. Correct ? If not, please explain where.)

4. It sort of looks to me -- on limited TOAW experience -- that maybe formation location and adjacency (having all sub-units within a 'throw' radius) is not used in supply supplied-to-unit calculations. Correct ?
Or is this scenario dependent -- in the Sicily example, any US army HQ would improve supply for III/30 US Inf. In another scenario, IF the formation support is Army or Internal, then the unit would need to be adjacent to its own HQ for the HQ boost. BUT in this second (Army or Internal) case, the actual supply itself comes from the , not the formation

5. So, my summary is that formation 'grouping' -- keeping all the ducklings nearby -- has little impact on supply distribution. (Again, specific scenarios might change 'little' to 'some'.)

Thanks.

Ogar.

And for more detail...
What I think I understand about supply distribution, so far.

My understanding (some snips from the manual and online help, but rewritten so I can try to understand this) is that supply originates at Supply Source(s) at the Force Global Turn Supply Setting Adjusted (FORCE SUPPLY + TRANSPORT SHARING - INTERDICTION). The supply distributed to units is dependent upon their formation's supply proficiency (and transport).

Supply is distributed along a 5-tiered network going from highest supply to none (tier 4 to tier 0) going first along :

Tier 4
Undamaged rail (no distance limit)
From each supplied, friendly controlled, undamaged Railroad hex to a distance equal to the Force Supply Radius (set in the Editor) through friendly controlled, improved Road, Unmuddied Road, Urban, Airfield, and Anchorage locations.
All locations with an unbroken Line of Communication through these types of terrain to a friendly
Supply Point are fully supplied and will provide the maximum possible amount of resupply for units. This is called the Fully Supplied Net.

Tier 3
Then traced from the Fully Supplied Net though friendly cropland and open locations. This is called Normal Supply. [Locations in terrain such as hills or ruins or... fail to meet these conditions.]

Tier 2
Locations not Fully or Normally Supplied, but able to trace a Line of Communication no longer then the Force Supply Radius to any normally or fully supplied location, are considered to have Limitted
Supply. [So, locations outside the FSN and not-Normally Supplied and further than the Radius are not eligible for Limited Supply. Note, a location failing Normal due to terrain might be eligible for Limited, if the location is equal or less than Radius from FSN or Normal locations.]

Tier 1
Locations not otherwise Supplied, but able to trace a Line of Communication of any length to any friendly Supply Point. are considered to have Minimal Supply. Units in these locations receive 25% of the maximum possible resupply.

Tier 0
No Soup.

Note that terrain may further reduce supply -- marsh, flooded,snow. And night time supply is also reduced.

Locations containing or adjacant to a cooperative HQ unit increases supply to a unit in such location by 50%.

TOAW III Manual 18.10.7
Whenever the game checks Formation Supply distribution efficiency (usually when supplying units), it looks to see if the Formation has a Headquarters unit assigned. If no Headquarters unit is assigned, or the assigned Headquarters has not been eliminated and either never had Support
Squad equipment authorized or still has its full compliment of Support Squads assigned, the usual Formation Supply distribution efficiency is used. If an assigned Headquarters has been destroyed, or if fewer than half of the authorized Support Squads are assigned, the Formation
Supply distribution efficiency is 50% of its “best” level (the one you set in the Editor). At Support Squad levels between 50% and 100% of authorized, the Formation Supply distribution efficiency is tied to the fraction of assigned / authorized Support Squads.

===
So, I've skipped/suppressed a lot of the detail here, but I'm just not seeing anything much that supports the claim that the Formation is key to the Supply distributed to the Unit.

Thanks for reading this far and any corrections/references/more questions appreciated.

ORIGINAL: ogar

I'm asking about where the formations come into this supply distribution thing.

Here are my questions and below is my labored summary of supply distribution (representing long hours counting hexes from the 20 circle to the 5 circle, and asking how come ?).

1. So, where does the formation fit into this supply distribution ?

Each formation has a "Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency" (manual pg 27). This value is the fraction of possible supply delivery that is actually delivered to the unit. So, all else being equal, a formation with a value of 100 for this parameter would get twice the supply distributed to its units as a formation with a value of 50 for it. As you noted below, this value may be subject to reduction if supply squads are lost from the formation's HQ (if that HQ was designed to have supply squads).

Formations also affect cooperation, and full cooperation is necessary to receive the HQ and Supply Unit 50% boosts. So, depending upon how the scenario was designed, units may or may not need to be with their own HQ to get the boost.

2. Does the unit pick up supply from the supply distribution net without using the formation ?

The "Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency" parameter is always used in the supply calculation regardless of location of formation units relative to their HQ or other units in the formation.

3. Since adjacency to cooperative HQs improves supply distribution effeciency, does Formation Support Level impact supply distribution ? (Example : Sicily 1943 -- US units at Force Support, British units at Force support; the location of III/30 US Inf next to HQ BR 13 Corps. My read is that there is no boost to the US unit's supply from this adjacency. Correct ? If not, please explain where.)

Full cooperation is required to get the HQ boost. I don't know for sure for the specific example you've quoted, but it sounds like your read is correct.

4. It sort of looks to me -- on limited TOAW experience -- that maybe formation location and adjacency (having all sub-units within a 'throw' radius) is not used in supply supplied-to-unit calculations. Correct ?

Only in the sense that full cooperation is required to get the HQ boost. So, depending upon how cooperation limits have been designed into the scenario, units may or may not need to "hang together" to get that boost. The scenario may have been designed to reward players for keeping formations togther, or it may allow liberal detachments and reassignments.

And for more detail...
What I think I understand about supply distribution, so far.

My understanding (some snips from the manual and online help, but rewritten so I can try to understand this) is that supply originates at Supply Source(s) at the Force Global Turn Supply Setting Adjusted (FORCE SUPPLY + TRANSPORT SHARING - INTERDICTION). The supply distributed to units is dependent upon their formation's supply proficiency (and transport).

There is also a penalty for moving/fighting in the previous turn (or bonus for not doing so, if you prefer).

Supply is distributed along a 5-tiered network going from highest supply to none (tier 4 to tier 0) going first along :

Tier 4
Undamaged rail (no distance limit)
From each supplied, friendly controlled, undamaged Railroad hex to a distance equal to the Force Supply Radius (set in the Editor) through friendly controlled, improved Road, Unmuddied Road, Urban, Airfield, and Anchorage locations.
All locations with an unbroken Line of Communication through these types of terrain to a friendly
Supply Point are fully supplied and will provide the maximum possible amount of resupply for units. This is called the Fully Supplied Net.

Tier 3
Then traced from the Fully Supplied Net though friendly cropland and open locations. This is called Normal Supply. [Locations in terrain such as hills or ruins or... fail to meet these conditions.]

Tier 2
Locations not Fully or Normally Supplied, but able to trace a Line of Communication no longer then the Force Supply Radius to any normally or fully supplied location, are considered to have Limitted
Supply. [So, locations outside the FSN and not-Normally Supplied and further than the Radius are not eligible for Limited Supply. Note, a location failing Normal due to terrain might be eligible for Limited, if the location is equal or less than Radius from FSN or Normal locations.]

Tier 1
Locations not otherwise Supplied, but able to trace a Line of Communication of any length to any friendly Supply Point. are considered to have Minimal Supply. Units in these locations receive 25% of the maximum possible resupply.

Tier 0
No Soup.

Note that terrain may further reduce supply -- marsh, flooded,snow. And night time supply is also reduced.

The above is sort of correct, except it needs to consider the Supply Radius. Each map location has a fraction of the Force Supply Level imposed on it (visible when Supply View is on). That's the starting point to determine how much supply the unit will receive. It is then modified by the other factors (adjacent to HQ and/or Supply Unit, moved/didn't move, Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency, etc.) to determine that exact amount the unit's Unit Supply Level is increased.

The supply point will be at 100% of the Force Supply Level. So will any contiguous, unbroken rail line that traces back to a supply point. From there, hexes within a supply radius of any such point that trace via an improved road are also at 100%. If they are more than 1 but less than 2 supply radii, they will be at 75%. If more than 2 but less than 3, they will be at 50%. Finally, if more than 3 supply radii from the supply point, they will be at 25%. Non-road terrain causes further level drops as well - sort of like you've noted above.

The above values can be increased by 25% if the location is within a supply radius of a functional supply unit, up to a max of 100%.

Finally, note that the above is going to be extensively revised under 3.4.

If the location can't trace any line of communications back to a supply point at all it is "Unsupplied". This has severe consequences beyond just not getting its unit supply level increased.

Note that lines of communication are blocked by impassible terrain, enemy units, and the ZOC of enemy units that aren't canceled by the presence of friendly units. Enemy "owned" hexes do not block lines of communication.

Locations containing or adjacant to a cooperative HQ unit increases supply to a unit in such location by 50%.

Correct, and the same is true for being adjacent to a cooperative supply unit. The two possible boosts can be combined, as well.

Thanks Curtis.

It does sound like -- pending arrival of 3.4 and what changes it brings -- that formations do not have a default impact on their units' supply. The location of the HQ or the supply unit, can boost a unit's supply, but a unit's supply is basically independent of its distance from the formation HQ -- with the clear exception of the boost by being on/next to HQ.

And, as always, it depends upon the scenario, and I suspect the forces within the scenario.

(In case it helps, this all started because I was messing around with scenario editor instead of attending to business and finishing any games that I'd started. )

What I do not understand is why they call it supply boost.

As it was stated in the hex you can see the maximum supply that can be obtained in that hex (the numbers inside the circles). Say is 18.

If the units does not have a cooperative HQ next to it, the maximum supply it can received will be reduced to 2/3, so it will be 12.

If the unit has move, the maximum supply it can received will be reduced to 2/3, so it will be 12.

If the unit has moved and does not have a cooperative HQ unit next to it, the maximum supply it can received will be reduced to 1/3, so it will be 6.

Now those numbers must be multiplied by the Formation Supply distribution efficiency. Say is 50%.

So a unit in that formation tha thas moved and does not have a cooperative HQ unit next to it will only receive 3.

Considering this, it is very clear that getting units from 1% supply back to above 30% is going to take a while.

Boy, I must not have any sense to try to reply to this with my limited experience,... but here I go. I think the boost is from the increase (of up to 50%) in supply after it's reduced down because of the hex being Normally or Minimally supplied, or the unit moved, or it's nighttime, or whatever.

My understanding is that in El Cid's example, the unit can get 18 if it's in a hex within the fully supplied network (the RR net or the improved road net off the RR). If the unit has not moved in the turn prior, it gets 18. My guess is that even if it's HQ is sitting with it, it still gets 18 (the 50% boost does not exceed the max supply for the hex).

Now let's say the unit has moved, then it would get the 2/3 reduction -- down to 12, like El Cid says. Without the HQ, it gets 12; next to the HQ, it gets a boost of up to 50% (and my understanding this is 0.50 * current unit_on_hex supply max, or 0.50 * 12 = 6) again, back to 18. If there's a supply unit involved, then that could operate like the HQ if it's next to the unit; if the supply unit is two hexes away, then it will only boost the unit by 75% (I think) of the 50%, or in the example 4 (rounding down from 4.5). More hexes away, the boost is 3 or 1 -- and at 5 hexes away, no effect.

Then the FSDE kicks in (and I missed that in my original post -- that sets the max efficiency for any unit -- including the HQ, in the formation). El Cid say FSDE = 50 %, so that's another half off sale on supply. But ---
no move no HQ on the full net -- 50% of 18 = 9
move with HQ on the full net -- 50% of (12 boosted to 18) = 9
move, no HQ, no Supply Unit, on the full net -- 50% of (18 reduced to 12 for move) = 6

And that's just on the fully supplied net.

And, yeah, I agree, once the unit grinds down to below 33% supply, it's going to be a loooong time before supply trickles up.

This is exactly why you need to pull those redlined units out of the line and rest them on a decent supply location next to an HQ and a supply unit. Then they can get 13.5 (=>13 or 14?) supply per turn and be back to full supply in eight turns. Almost there in seven.