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Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:25 am
by Lanconic
First turn of the 1943 scenario, I converted all extant production just to the TA152C
Just for laughs.
Oddly enough it did convert all factories to that model, however.....
33 points of factories converted w/o any delay. They simply went online.
and they were the critical assembly factories.
I suspect this is not intended, and I do have the saved game, should anyone like to see it.
BTW the number of extant factories actually converting is 118, just so you all know.
I wont be able to leave it there, because I have no night fighters in production.
That is untenable.
I am still undecided if killing the Ju-88 and Do-217 night fighters is a bad idea.
In reality the LW pilots post war lauded the Owl.
But in the game, the others shoot down bombers in droves.
I AM certain that planes w/o loiter suck as night fighters.
However I would like to try one of the fantasy jets in that role.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:08 am
by harley
Thanks, Lanconic. I did pick up that issue with the delay when I was testing your original assertion. It will be fixed with the patch.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:39 am
by ool
I don't understand why the Owl wouldn't shoot down allied bombers in droves as well. In the old BTR I converted the night fighter factories to Owl production and had great results. Latest radar and great speed are valuable assets to the owl. What has been changed in the new game to the Owl's performance?
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:15 am
by harley
There are now 3 different versions of the He219, with different performance, weapons and equipment/radar.
The newer radar is now added over time, rather than at the game start. I think, I'll have to check.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:19 pm
by ool
Even in the earliest form it should still be a rather formidable fighter shouldn't it? Especially in comparison to the slower 110 & JU88 types available.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
by Hard Sarge
why are you having trouble with the 219 ?
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:16 pm
by Lanconic
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
why are you having trouble with the 219 ?
Wrong word. It is that the JU88 and DO217 shoot down MORE bombers.
Depends on what the word trouble means.
The question is....it takes time to make HE219-5 and no idea if they shoot down stuff better
than the DO-217 which has a massive firepower rating.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:47 pm
by Hard Sarge
build the 217 then, easy plane to get
but, overall, think the 88G or the 388 may be the best
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:42 pm
by ool
I was always under the impression from my readings that the Owl was the last word in German night fighters. Yet you prefer the JU 88G. Speed wise isn't the Owl much better than the 88G? Also isn't the Owl radar progressively better as well? Would greatly appreciate your thoughts on these two.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:35 pm
by Hard Sarge
the 219 is a oddity, most of it, is what it could of been, more then what it was
it had a lot of "haters" and always were trying to stop it from being built, and it could never get the engines it was being designed to use, so was always underpowered, it was not as fast, as all of the claims made for it
(now, I like the plane, others do not)
the G and the 388 are both late war models, so, they will be getting later radar
really, there are a lot of good Night fighters in there, the early 110 is the work horse, but the later models are better, the 110 and the 217 are your weak sisters, but are needed early on
(from one of my books on the after war, interviews with the LW Generals, one of the statements on the 219 was, they knew there were only 7 Airfields it could take off from, so, if they went heavy into building it, they would of been forced where it could be placed, and the Allies would of worked it out, and could of shut down the Nightfighter force at one blow (by hitting all of the fields) but, the RAF wanted to know, why the plane was not built in greater numbers ????)
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:43 pm
by Lanconic
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the 219 is a oddity, most of it, is what it could of been, more then what it was
it had a lot of "haters" and always were trying to stop it from being built, and it could never get the engines it was being designed to use, so was always underpowered, it was not as fast, as all of the claims made for it
(now, I like the plane, others do not)
the G and the 388 are both late war models, so, they will be getting later radar
really, there are a lot of good Night fighters in there, the early 110 is the work horse, but the later models are better, the 110 and the 217 are your weak sisters, but are needed early on
(from one of my books on the after war, interviews with the LW Generals, one of the statements on the 219 was, they knew there were only 7 Airfields it could take off from, so, if they went heavy into building it, they would of been forced where it could be placed, and the Allies would of worked it out, and could of shut down the Nightfighter force at one blow (by hitting all of the fields) but, the RAF wanted to know, why the plane was not built in greater numbers ????)
I base my comments soley by the results of actually using the planes in the game.
The JU88 and DO217 are hands down the high scores.
Then again.....hbve not seen a game last into SEPT 1944 with the majority of the
Night Fighters HE219
To me...the biggest reason to use them is that they use the SAME engine as the TA152C
and that means simple production.
I never emphasize Jet production, it may well be a weakness of mine.
If Jets can fly w/o fuel, in the game, it certainly IS a weakness.
They should be able to do that.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:38 pm
by Hard Sarge
why should Jets be able to fly with out fuel ?
they didn't need the same fuel the other aircraft needed, but they still needed jet fuel
you can see a number of pictures of the 262 being towed into place with Horses, as they were not allowed to use there engines to taxi around the fields
lack of fuel, hurt the jets also
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:26 am
by TechSgt
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
why should Jets be able to fly with out fuel ?
they didn't need the same fuel the other aircraft needed, but they still needed jet fuel
you can see a number of pictures of the 262 being towed into place with Horses, as they were not allowed to use there engines to taxi around the fields
lack of fuel, hurt the jets also
HARD_Sarge;
Just another thought! I bet this game somehow includes the
jet fuel being different. [;)]
TS
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:09 am
by joliverlay
In GGs game USAAF the jets did not require fuel.
This was supposedly because the jet engine of the time while having lots of problems, could run on unrefined (or easily refined) fuels like diesel or kerosine which was not in short supply compared to the high octane (high for the germans) aviation fuel.
The Me163 should of course not be affected by fuel but rather by the chemical industry....it ran on hydrazine and liquid oxygen (very dangerous) or something like that.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:21 pm
by Hard Sarge
163, C-Stoff and T-Stoff
one was very nasty, it could eat you away if the tank broke on landing and any fuel was left (one case, after a Ruff landing, the crews were happy that the plane didn't explode, ran out to it to help the pilot, and there was no pilot left, fuel ate him)
and roger on the unrefined stuff, but that is "bad" it could run on it, but the engines wouldn't be any good afterward (which, to be honest, a good chance they wouldn't be any good with good fuel also)
but, yea, in game, it needs some kind of fuel
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:52 am
by harley
ORIGINAL: Lanconic
33 points of factories converted w/o any delay. They simply went online.
and they were the critical assembly factories.
I suspect this is not intended, and I do have the saved game, should anyone like to see it.
<sermon>
This is now fixed.
What caused it? Hard Coding. In the old game the Bf109G-6 and FW190A-8 each had paks, the Bf109G-6/R6 and Fw109A-8/R8. These were freely interchangable at the production level. Swap prod from one to the other without penalty. That code was still in, and the TA152C assembly was put in the Bf109G-6/R6 slot, giving the player a free upgrade from one to the next. The Fw190A-6 got a freebie to the FW190A-5 got a freebie to the FW190A-8 in our rendition.
These are the little things that make Ron and I cringe when we see OBeditors flying around.
</sermon>
I dealt with paks differently in our game - they are a seperate type still, but they draw replacements from the standard pool. It's flexible, as the code has no fixed slots to deal with, it just looks at the data to see what to do.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:46 pm
by Lanconic
ORIGINAL: harley
ORIGINAL: Lanconic
33 points of factories converted w/o any delay. They simply went online.
and they were the critical assembly factories.
I suspect this is not intended, and I do have the saved game, should anyone like to see it.
<sermon>
This is now fixed.
What caused it? Hard Coding. In the old game the Bf109G-6 and FW190A-8 each had paks, the Bf109G-6/R6 and Fw109A-8/R8. These were freely interchangable at the production level. Swap prod from one to the other without penalty. That code was still in, and the TA152C assembly was put in the Bf109G-6/R6 slot, giving the player a free upgrade from one to the next. The Fw190A-6 got a freebie to the FW190A-5 got a freebie to the FW190A-8 in our rendition.
These are the little things that make Ron and I cringe when we see OBeditors flying around.
</sermon>
I dealt with paks differently in our game - they are a seperate type still, but they draw replacements from the standard pool. It's flexible, as the code has no fixed slots to deal with, it just looks at the data to see what to do.
Imbedded cheats would suck.
Let me correct an impression that I am afraid you have of ME.
My sole goal is an accurate simulation of historic events.
I am not really concerned if it is a good game, but that is a plus.
I play either side without preference. I find playing the Germans easier.
Possibly, I play the allies poorly.
If my observations are helpful, then I am happy to help.
I do not, try to be polemical. Even if it sometimes seems that way.
I am unsure that the original designer (Gary) ever worked on an assembly line.
His benchmark of ten days, in my opinion, is hopelessly optimistic.
To try and coordinate delivery of parts labor and engines, to an assembly site
would take longer than that. (unless it was a VERY, small site)
Then again, possibly the modern methods are more prone to errors.
I cant say.
I would not gainsay your efforts, unless I had a good reason. I dont see any
such reason.
RE: Oddity German Production
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:12 am
by harley
Dude, the sermon wasn't directed at you in any way shape or form.
to be honest - after a rocky start, you've been one of the most helpful contributors here.
as for the cheats - this wasn't a cheat, it was the mechanism to allow a field-pak to come out of the factory, rather than being added on later. The cost/result was the same as the player or AI could add the pak in the field with no cost, but the problem was that the AI would build both types, have a pool of G6's and no G6R6s in stock or vice-versa. My method solved that problem, making the paks more field centric.