Matrix Games Forums

Gents,

I wanted to present some additional thoughts and data regarding the current "sweep" model. This has been discussed at length in another Sweep thread, but I wanted to set this up specifically to provide detals about a recent situation I experienced in Burma and why i think it illustrates the situation. It will take me a little while to get everything together, so please refrain from posting any replies until I have a chance to post the combat replay from the turn in question. That should be in an hour or so.

Before I go searching for that post and type in some of the salient details, here are some poitns about sweeps:

1) AE (and WitP and UV) are amazing games because, in part, they are remarkably intuitive inspite of their complexity. That is, even a newbie has a chance to jump right into the game and, if they have a decent understanding of the real war in the Pacific, they are going to have a pretty good idea how to play the game. That's a wonderful attribute.

2) Therefore, whenever possible, the game engine ought to prefer intuitive applications rather than counter-intuitive applications.

3) Intuitively, a player who sets up sweep missions and bomber missions to strike the same hex in the same turn expects the fighters to go in first. There is nothing wrong with this expectation. That's how military leaders would do it. Both military leaders and players of this game realize that often the best laid plans will go awry so that his orders won't get carried out, but the screw up should be the departure from the rule, not the rule.

4) A player shouldn't have to go through wild permutations in order to get an artificial fix to the current situation - such as setting bomber priority to naval strike first with sweep as the alternative mission. This just overcomplicates the situation and is a recipe for disaster - a single enemy AMc could show within range and all the bombers could target it leading to total mayhem.

5) Some developers have expressed that a big objective was to do away with uber CAP. But based upon the example I will provide later, this didn't happen. My fighters and bombers went in against the enemy hex in dribs and drabs and faced 90 Japanese Oscars. That's bad enough, but what happened next was even worse. Because my aircraft attacked waves of small groups, the Oscars eventually ran out of ammo or petrol and landed - so that when most of my Sweep fighters came in there weren't any Japanese fighters in the sky. So, 90 fighters got to take on little waves of 5-10 aircraft each, tore them up, then retired and didn't have to take on the meat of the Allied raid.

6) Contrary to what some have asserted this wasn't an particularly complicated mission:
a) The Japanese control Akyab.
b) The Allies wanted to hit the airfield there with a combination of Sweep, Bomb, and Escort missions.
c) The Allies were coming from close by - the fighters from Cox's Bazaar and Chittagong and the bombers from Diamond Harbor and Calcutta.
d) The fighers were closer to the target than the bombers, but came in much later (and, as noted, didn't get to tangle with the enemy because they had already retired).

7) Since this mission was not particularly complicated, I would have expected it to come off reasonably well, with the Sweep coming first followed by the bombers and escorts; but even had things gone awry, I would have expected the Sweep to come after the bombers and still face the enemy.

8) I would expect things to get mucked up now and then because that is war. But from what I've seen by developers in the other thread it sounds like this is the NORM for Sweep raids.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Let's Go with Intuative by Default" Rebel

I second, third, fourth . . .

a fix to the irrational, counter-intuitive sweep model. The probability of a sweep going in before other missions should be close to 1 - near-certain - but I'll settle for 90%. This should be a relatively simple fix.

On a related matter: I've noticed that setting a sweep to go in low - 100 feet - is near suicidal. They get ripped by enemy fighters and do little damage in return. This is apart from the increased risk of operational losses.

I've taken to setting sweeps at the plane's optimum fighter altitude, which I gather is not WAD.

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 90 - The CAP isn't fragmented.
 
Allied aircraft
      Sea Hurricane Ib x 13 - But the Allied strike is.
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Sea Hurricane Ib: 4 destroyed
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 89 
 
Allied aircraft
      Wellington Ic x 16
      Kittyhawk IA x 4 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 22 damaged
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Wellington Ic: 8 destroyed
 
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 38
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 82
 
Allied aircraft
      Blenheim IV x 16 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Blenheim IV: 6 destroyed
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 38,100 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 69
 
Allied aircraft
      Hurricane IIa Trop x 8 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hurricane IIa Trop: 1 destroyed
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 37,600 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 55 
 
Allied aircraft
      Hurricane IIc Trop x 13
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hurricane IIc Trop: 3 destroyed

 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 32
 
Allied aircraft
      Blenheim IV x 10
      Hudson IIIa x 8
      Wellington Ic x 32 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 14 damaged
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Wellington Ic: 7 destroyed, 11 damaged
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 15
 
Allied aircraft
      Hudson IIIa x 9
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hudson IIIa: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
 
 

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 3 
 
Allied aircraft
      B-25C Mitchell x 14 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 damaged
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
 
Allied aircraft losses
      B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged 
 
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5 
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights 
 
Allied aircraft
      B-17F Fortress x 12 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground 
 
Runway hits 14
 
Now that the bombers have finished arriving in bits and pieces, the computer finally sends in the Sweep missions from nearby Cox's Bazaar and Chittagong and they find...not a single Japanese fighter in the sky.....
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes
 
Allied aircraft
      P-38F Lightning x 22
 
No Allied losses
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
 
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights 
 
Allied aircraft
      Hurricane IIb Trop x 9
      P-40E Warhawk x 39
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
 
Runway hits 6

 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 39,600 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes 
 
Allied aircraft
      Hurricane IIc Trop x 16 
 
No Allied losses 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      16 x Hurricane IIc Trop sweeping at 35600 feet
 
That's it for day one (day two to follow in a few minutes - it is just as bad or worse).  So, 90 Oscars get to square off against a handful of fighters at a time or lightly escorted or unescorted bombers, but don't have to face the meat of the Allied fighter Sweeps.
 

We're playing two-day turns, so the same orders apply to both Allied and Japanese squadrons for day two, which is a repeat of day one.  To save time, I've just copied and pasted the entire report from the attacks:
 
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 88 
 
Allied aircraft
      Sea Hurricane Ib x 1
      Hurricane IIb Trop x 6
      Wellington Ic x 4
      Kittyhawk IA x 2
      P-40E Warhawk x 8 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hurricane IIb Trop: 3 destroyed
      Wellington Ic: 1 destroyed
      Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed
      P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed
 
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 11 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (18 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      18 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      15 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (20 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      20 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      6 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (18 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      18 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 84 
 
Allied aircraft
      Blenheim IV x 7
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Blenheim IV: 5 destroyed 
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      11 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      17 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      13 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (20 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      20 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (18 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      18 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 36,600 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 75
 
Allied aircraft
      Hurricane IIc Trop x 9 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      17 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      19 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      18 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 67
 
Allied aircraft
      Blenheim IV x 10
      Wellington Ic x 14
      B-17F Fortress x 12 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 damaged
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Blenheim IV: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
      B-17F Fortress: 6 damaged
 
Runway hits 5
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      12 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 15000 feet
               Airfield Attack:  8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 5000 feet
               Airfield Attack:  4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      15 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      13 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      13 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (18 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      18 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 33
 
Allied aircraft
      Hudson IIIa x 8 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hudson IIIa: 5 destroyed 
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      13 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      1 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      6 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 45 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 15 
 
Allied aircraft
      Hudson IIIa x 5 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Hudson IIIa: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       2 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 4000 feet
               Airfield Attack:  4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      1 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 5 
 
Allied aircraft
      B-25C Mitchell x 14 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
 
Allied aircraft losses
      B-25C Mitchell: 8 damaged 
 
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 15000 feet
               Airfield Attack:  6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      1 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
260th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 43,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes 
 
Allied aircraft
      P-38F Lightning x 22
 
No Allied losses
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      22 x P-38F Lightning sweeping at 39000 feet
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45 
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
 
 
Allied aircraft
      P-40K Warhawk x 5 
 
No Allied losses
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       5 x P-40K Warhawk sweeping at 10000 feet 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights
 
Allied aircraft
      P-40E Warhawk x 10 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      P-40E Warhawk: 3 damaged 
 
Runway hits 5
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      10 x P-40E Warhawk diving from 29000'
               Airfield Attack:  1 x 500 lb GP Bomb
 
So, over two days, those P-38Fs don't get meet a single Japanese fighter over Akyab even though, over those two days, 180 Oscars (90 each day) get to face small, lightly escorted or unescorted bomber raids.
 
This kind of thing should happen from time to time - the result of bad luck, a foul up, incompetence, or whatever happens in war from time to time to ruin the best laid plans.  But the devs seem to be saying that this is the NORM for sweep missions in AE - that this is WAD.

P.S.  Addressing this doesn't favor either side - both the problem and the solution would burden and benefit both sides equally.

I think the variability on timing of the sweep mission is a good thing.  If you want to make sure the bombers are protected fly in on an escort mission.
 
If you are flying a separate mission for the sweep things could happen to screw up the timing and cause it to go in after the bombing run.
 
That is just my opinion of it.  Otherwise the sweep seems to be too strong against the allied CAP early in the war, which has been my only experience so far.
 
Just my opinion

I rarly use sweep missions, only if I want to close/melt down the CAP first before I sent in strike ACs. I escort my bombers with the P-38's.  But I agree 90 Oscars at once on air......[8|]

ORIGINAL: foliveti

I think the variability on timing of the sweep mission is a good thing.  If you want to make sure the bombers are protected fly in on an escort mission.

If the allied player is attacking well defended positions with Hudsons and Blenheims they are going to feel a real pinch.

I like the variability as well.

ORIGINAL: foliveti

That is just my opinion of it. Otherwise the sweep seems to be too strong against the allied CAP early in the war, which has been my only experience so far.

I thought most allied planes hold their own depending on altitude and experience level of the men flying the machines.[:)]

If what we're striving for is (A) 5, 10, 12, 15 aircraft on one side against 90 on the other; and (2) the 90 get to retire without facing the main fighter concentrations designated to fly against the hex, then, yes, this is WAD.  But if you don't like the idea of massed fighters that get to target the incoming raid and also avoid combat with fighters (talk about having your cake and eating it too!), this is bad news.
 
Nuff said on my part, though.

When we have this discussion (which is oke) we have to think about three things:

- fighters going in at 100 feet should be torn to pieces by light flak and CAP. In an air fight energy is life. You have kinetic(speed) and you have potential (altitude). A good fighter pilot will always fight at a energy advantage. He will have the initiative and prevail 9 out of 10 times. The successes the allies had later in the war going in low (at least in the european theatere) were only possible because they knocked the luftwaffe out of the sky and killed a lot of veteran luftwaffe pilots.

- The defender has the advantage of deciding how many fighters he commits on a daily basis. The defender has the advantage of "small working area" (relative ease of forming cap). The defender CAN NOT decide what to intercept the way the game works! This means sweeping could work out fine (damaged and out of ammo cap before the bombers arrive).

- Organisation, command structure and communication. Coordinating several squadrons of different nationality, plane performance at a large range will screw things over.

So, you basically want to make sweep into escort, except still 2-3 times more efficient? No, I think this won't benefit the game at all.

ORIGINAL: foliveti

I think the variability on timing of the sweep mission is a good thing.  If you want to make sure the bombers are protected fly in on an escort mission.

Its too random - its basically set up that no matter how intelligent you make your choices - i.e - setting the fighters to arrive from a closer base - that its a totally random result.

Thats no different, IMHO, than making everything else in the game totally random. Why not make bombardment missions random? some show up in the am, some at night, some on the weekend? And supply as well? Sometimes it will arrive, sometimes it wont. etc etc

I think thats the real problem - its an 'unintuitive' result.

Nothing wrong with variability, so long as it is 'slanted' towards real life solutions. I would like to see a fix so that if the air groups are from the SAME air HQ (thus they would have excellent communications) that the sweeps will go in first 95% of the time. If they are in separate air hq's, well, then i could believe that communiczations would not be as good, and the current system could be justified.

This would force the player to make a decision on whether or not to expend pp's to put his fighters into the same hq and thus gain the surety of a sweep mission working as planned.

Player decisions based on rational results are almost always a good thing. The problem is now, is that there *is* no rational result.

ORIGINAL: FatR

So, you basically want to make sweep into escort, except still 2-3 times more efficient? No, I think this won't benefit the game at all.

I don't think that would be good - but I dont think that is what the result would be. Unescorted bombers will still get torn to shreds - but the player could make a choice to first sweep the hex and try to eliminate some of the opposition.

- fighters going in at 100 feet should be torn to pieces by light flak and CAP. In an air fight energy is life.

I agree, but in my WIPTAE trials the 100' casualties came exclusively from A2A . . . not from any flak.

I like Jackyo 123's suggestion of intra-HQ communications efficiency, and players should be rewarded for working along HQ organizational lines.

I tend to go with FatR´s and foliveti´s opinion.

Sweeps are what they are, fighters moving in to tangle with the CAP of an AB from a favourable position - and thats its strenght (or attack planes on the ground if set to 100ft).

I´ve seen too many opinions on what sweeps "should do" or when they "should arrive" or if they are resembling something like a "high" or "loose escort"
and so on. The are not designed to coordinate with raids in any way.

E.g. if you go in with a fighter sweep @30k and attack with bombers @15k i wouldn´t be surprized if the bombers arrive long before the sweep does.
Air war and coordination takes place in 3 dimensions, not two and to reach 30k takes much longer than to climb to 15.

If you are sending in bombers into a heavily defended AB...well...escort them, thats what an escort is for.
If you don´t feel ready to risk bombers because you deem the AB´s defense too strong thats either a reason to do sweeps only to gain air superiority or
not to attack at all and reinforce until you think you can outnumber the defender.
If the attack doesn´t coordinate check syncronized attack altitude, weather, overstacking and HQ´s, different distances to target,...theres nearly always a reason.

The reason people want this to work is that sweeps are more effective against CAP in WITP (AE? - not enough turns in the new one for me to say for sure) than escort. Thus, everyone wants their favored method to be a sure thing.

E.g. if you go in with a fighter sweep @30k and attack with bombers @15k i wouldn´t be surprized if the bombers arrive long before the sweep does.

I think you meant "a fighter ESCORT @30k". Sweeps are fighter missions independent of bombing missions.

[Sorry if I sound preachy, but let's keep the terminology straight.]

Hi,

This is from the manual, chapter 7.4:

A successful attack would try to have a Sweep mission go in before the main raid to engage
and decrease the CAP, while successive bomber raids, with or without escorts, follow on.

Although it doesn't specify how you make the sweep go in first I have always assumed that sending some fighters on a sweep mission would be enough to make it happen. I have not seen any special advice on how to set them up.

/BPRE

You sweep until you have reduced the CAP's effectiveness so that you can successfully escort the bombing missions. Then you escort and bomb.