Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:39 pm**

Hi

Looks like there´s a database error for the Tojo in Scenario 2.

The Ki-44-IIb shows up with 40mm cannons which it shouldn´t have. The IIc instead has only four 12.7mm MGs. This means quite some trouble for Allied PBEM players as the IJA gets a real bomber buster (fighter killer too perhaps) in mid 43. Or it means trouble for the IJA if the 40mm cannon is rated in the game like it was in real life - useless against fighters.

Posted: **Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:46 pm**

while there´s this error in the database, it more or less will mean trouble for the IJA as it will probably make the Tojo IIb pretty much "useless" as the 40mm cannon is pure crap. Looked it up with tracker (oh what a wonderful instrument [:D]).

I would rate the 40mm cannon even worse than the 12.7mm MGs, not to speak about the 20mm cannons. Pure crap. Why the 40mm has the same effect as the 20mm cannon is beyond me though. I guess it would have an effect a couple of times higher than a 20mm if it hits the target. The only problem you would have is hitting the target, which is reflected in the accuracy and range anyway though. Is the effect rating of the 40mm also a wrong db entry?

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:00 pm**

Intresting point, I would like to the hear the answer on that as well

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:22 pm**

Is it a scen 2 issue only or a scen 1 and 2 issue.

if its just scen 2 its me if its both scen 1 and 2 its the air team [:D][:D]

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:18 pm**

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Is it a scen 2 issue only or a scen 1 and 2 issue.

if its just scen 2 its me if its both scen 1 and 2 its the air team [:D][:D]

don´t know, I´m playing scen 2 so I have to look it up. Do you agree that it´s wrong at least? [&:]

edit: it´s also wrong in scen 1, so it´s wrong in scen 1+2

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:41 pm**

Well in that case its not changing the data as to wheter its right or wrong I have no idea I know pretty much nothing about Japanese aircraft I would ask it in the air thread

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:43 pm**

I think the accuracy of the pilot randomly dropping 40mm shells out of the cockpit is at least 3. [:D]

Seriously though, do cannons with such low accuracy ratings do better in strafing attacks or does that value affect all accuracy whether it be air-to-air or air-to-ground(sea)?

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:44 pm**

seems the armament may be switched. will make a note of it to the air oob guru.

Posted: **Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:18 pm**

The CINCPAC-CINCPOA Special Translation #73 dated July 25 1945 of the captured document "Table of Aircraft Designation and Armament, Army Air Headquarters (Secret) #16979, 9 December 1943" indicates that the armament of the Type 2 Single-Seat Fighter Model 2 Otsu aka Ki-44-IIb Tojo was 2 x Ho-103 12.7mm mg (fuselage) & 2 x Ho-301 40mm cannon (wings). 394 -IIb's (serials 1356-1749) were manufactored with the Ho-301's of which an unknown number were supposedly modified in the field to remove or replace the Ho-301's with Ho-103's.

The 40mm Ho-301 cannon fired a caseless shell at the relatively high cyclical rate of 400rd/m @ 750ft/sec with an estimated 10 round magazine (by comparison the P-39's 37mm Oldsmobile M4 was 150rd/m @ 2,000ft/sec 30 round mag). IOW a not untypical Japanese eccentricity really rather unsuited for A2A combat.

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:01 am**

But it was used quite effectively fly to 100 yards and let it ripp , remember accuracy = fire rate.

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:25 pm**

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Well in that case its not changing the data as to wheter its right or wrong I have no idea I know pretty much nothing about Japanese aircraft I would ask it in the air thread

every source on the internet I´ve found states that the IIb hadn´t 40mm cannons. [&:]

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:56 pm**

i've found one saying the game is true as it is.

Maybe not the best source (wiki has a bad reputation but...), and it's in French, but the article seems complete. take it like you want

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-44

Un nouveau moteur, le Ki-44-II [modifier]

Le Ki-44-IIa [modifier]
Grâce à l'adjonction d'un deuxième étage au compresseur, les ingénieurs de Nakajima réussirent à obtenir 1520ch de ce moteur désigné alors Ha-109. Les dimensions similaires permirent de le monter sur la cellule du Ki-44-I donnant naissance à la famille des Ki-44-II. Le Ki-44-II rentra en production à l'automne 1942 après que seulement 40 Ki-44-I aient été fabriqués. Ce qui fait de la variante Ki-44-II la première 'vraie' version de série. L'armement du -I sera conservé que sur la version -IIa ('a' pour 'ko' : 甲). Ce qui fait que les Ki-44-IIa avaient l'armement du -Ia ou -Ib.

Le Ki-44-IIb [modifier]
Sur la version -IIb ('b' pour 'otsu' :乙) il ne restait que les deux mitrailleuses Ho-103 de capot, les armes d'ailes n'étaient pas montées. Il n'est pas certain à ce jour que ce soit pour alléger l'avion ou pour prévoir le montage d'autres armes en unité. Pour lutter contre les bombardiers, des armes lourdes s'imposaient. Un énorme canon de 40mm fut installé en petite série dans les ailes des Ki-44-IIb. Ce canon étrange, le Ho-301, avait la particularité de tirer un projectile de type fusée. Au lieu d'être propulsé par l'explosion de poudre, il utilisait la combustion de celle-ci à travers des trous pour avancer. La faible cadence de tir et la faible vitesse initiale du projectile imposaient de tirer à quelques dizaines de mètres de la cible rendant la tâche difficile et très périlleuse.

Le Ki-44-IIc [modifier]
La version -IIc ('c' pour 'hei' : 丙) utilisait un armement plus standard de 4 mitrailleuses Ho-103. Certaines sources occidentales citent l'usage de canons Ho-5 de 20mm, les sources japonaises n'en font pas état. Cette version fut abondamment utilisée au-dessus du Japon.

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:40 pm**

ORIGINAL: Oddball_France

i've found one saying the game is true as it is.

Maybe not the best source (wiki has a bad reputation but...), and it's in French, but the article seems complete. take it like you want

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-44

Un nouveau moteur, le Ki-44-II [modifier]

Le Ki-44-IIa [modifier]
Grâce à l'adjonction d'un deuxième étage au compresseur, les ingénieurs de Nakajima réussirent à obtenir 1520ch de ce moteur désigné alors Ha-109. Les dimensions similaires permirent de le monter sur la cellule du Ki-44-I donnant naissance à la famille des Ki-44-II. Le Ki-44-II rentra en production à l'automne 1942 après que seulement 40 Ki-44-I aient été fabriqués. Ce qui fait de la variante Ki-44-II la première 'vraie' version de série. L'armement du -I sera conservé que sur la version -IIa ('a' pour 'ko' : 甲). Ce qui fait que les Ki-44-IIa avaient l'armement du -Ia ou -Ib.

Le Ki-44-IIb [modifier]
Sur la version -IIb ('b' pour 'otsu' :乙) il ne restait que les deux mitrailleuses Ho-103 de capot, les armes d'ailes n'étaient pas montées. Il n'est pas certain à ce jour que ce soit pour alléger l'avion ou pour prévoir le montage d'autres armes en unité. Pour lutter contre les bombardiers, des armes lourdes s'imposaient. Un énorme canon de 40mm fut installé en petite série dans les ailes des Ki-44-IIb. Ce canon étrange, le Ho-301, avait la particularité de tirer un projectile de type fusée. Au lieu d'être propulsé par l'explosion de poudre, il utilisait la combustion de celle-ci à travers des trous pour avancer. La faible cadence de tir et la faible vitesse initiale du projectile imposaient de tirer à quelques dizaines de mètres de la cible rendant la tâche difficile et très périlleuse.

Le Ki-44-IIc [modifier]
La version -IIc ('c' pour 'hei' : 丙) utilisait un armement plus standard de 4 mitrailleuses Ho-103. Certaines sources occidentales citent l'usage de canons Ho-5 de 20mm, les sources japonaises n'en font pas état. Cette version fut abondamment utilisée au-dessus du Japon.

Thanks Oddball. According to that article seems like some of the Oscars did use those 40 mms, but also makes it sound like an odd gun .

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:46 pm**

exactly, which corresponds with the bad stats the gun have in game (range, accuracy...)

just one thing, it is also written that the 40mm gun version was a small/short serie.

Posted: **Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:19 pm**

ORIGINAL: castor troy

every source on the internet I´ve found states that the IIb hadn´t 40mm cannons. [&:]

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:43 am**

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: castor troy

every source on the internet I´ve found states that the IIb hadn´t 40mm cannons. [&:]

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

I see. Thanks for the info, you´re the expert anyway.

The only reason why I even brought it up was because I found it more than strange that the Japanese put 40mm aboard a fighter in 42. I was going through the enemy fighters I will have to face in my PBEM in the next two years and the first one I stumbled over was the 40mm cannon armed Tojo, which only made sense to me if they had fielded some sort of fighter late in the war to deal with the heavy bomber threat. Mounting such cannons onto a fighter in mid 42 didn´t make sense to me and therefore I´ve looked it up on the Inet, proving my (wrong) assumption.

It still doesn´t make sense to me, but it was a Japanese decision after all. And it gives me an advantage in my PBEM I guess as the II-b seems to be more or less useless due to the cannon armament.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:53 am**

It still doesn´t make sense to me, but it was a Japanese decision after all. And it gives me an advantage in my PBEM I guess as the II-b seems to be more or less useless due to the cannon armament

I must admit that I had not yet checked the stats of the II-b. I will avoid it I think [:)]

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:58 am**

ORIGINAL: stuman

It still doesn´t make sense to me, but it was a Japanese decision after all. And it gives me an advantage in my PBEM I guess as the II-b seems to be more or less useless due to the cannon armament

I must admit that I had not yet checked the stats of the II-b. I will avoid it I think [:)]

I´m sure my opponent will find another IJA fighter for mass production... [;)]

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:53 am**

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: castor troy

every source on the internet I´ve found states that the IIb hadn´t 40mm cannons. [&:]

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

I see. Thanks for the info, you´re the expert anyway.

The only reason why I even brought it up was because I found it more than strange that the Japanese put 40mm aboard a fighter in 42. I was going through the enemy fighters I will have to face in my PBEM in the next two years and the first one I stumbled over was the 40mm cannon armed Tojo, which only made sense to me if they had fielded some sort of fighter late in the war to deal with the heavy bomber threat. Mounting such cannons onto a fighter in mid 42 didn´t make sense to me and therefore I´ve looked it up on the Inet, proving my (wrong) assumption.

It still doesn´t make sense to me, but it was a Japanese decision after all. And it gives me an advantage in my PBEM I guess as the II-b seems to be more or less useless due to the cannon armament.

From what I read in the French text, the performance was abysmal anyway: the shell was some uneasy mix between a usual shell and a rocket, with power propelling it through apertures instead of doing it the normal way. Low muzzle velocity, low rate of fire and terrible accuracy which made the attacker fire only when he was no more than a few dozens meters behind the intented target. They say they didn't go far with the experiment anyway.

Posted: **Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:40 am**

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I´m sure my opponent will find another IJA fighter for mass production... [;)]

I'm quite sure of that as well. [;)]

BTW the Dinah fighter variant - despite its other beautiful stats - has a similarly crappy cannon as its main armament.

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