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Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:16 am
by Jonny
Have to say I am a little bummed there are no visible roads.
RE: Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:07 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Jonny
Have to say I am a little bummed there are no visible roads.
It's because of the scale of the game and HEXes...
Leo "Apollo11"
RE: Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:54 am
by Cavalry Corp
I advise caution here not every hex would have roads ( paved roads ) just as every hex does not have a railway does it?
Look at say the excellent and very well researched maps of Russia by HPS in the PZC games ...
There would not be paved road running too and from every hex . Between the cities yes , every hex to every hex no...
Cav
RE: Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:26 am
by jaw
ORIGINAL: cavalry
I advise caution here not every hex would have roads ( paved roads ) just as every hex does not have a railway does it?
Look at say the excellent and very well researched maps of Russia by HPS in the PZC games ...
There would not be paved road running too and from every hex . Between the cities yes , every hex to every hex no...
Cav
Panzer Campaign games are grand tactical games with 1km hexes and two hour turns; at that scale roads make sense. WitE is a strategic/operational game with 10 mile hexes and week long turns. At that scale any road movement benefit would grossly distort reality. The current movement rules do a very good job of "simulating" road movement by reducing the cost to move through hexes you already control.
RE: Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:03 pm
by Capt Cliff
I could have sworn I posted this in another thread ... but ... I believe it's more important to follow the rail lines than roads. Unless the unit is in road column it wouldn't recieve any benifit. An armored divison in road column takes up a lot of space on that road and blocks it for other units. Since movement points are time increments and it cost less when you behind the lines then they might have factored it in. But as a graphic's fluff to have the roads ... I don't care. It might draw people to follow them when no benifit is recieved.
RE: Roads
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:33 pm
by notenome
I just posted this, I agree with the absence of roads except where the minsk-smolensk-moscow highway is concerned, as that was pretty much the best road in Russia, did not get muddied, and was AGC's lifeblood in terms of supplies. I would vouch for its, and only its, inclusion
RE: Roads
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:12 am
by Jonny
I get the logic with the RR. I have a WWII NEWSMAP huge Russian map and it's only RRs. A map with roads that didn't do anything would still look better. I do like the graphics fluff. Imagine looking at Germany and seeing all those roads. notenome is right on with his opinion. It could be only that road and perhaps a few more once you head west but nothing crazy.
Game looks cool though and just wanted to have a small say.
RE: Roads
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:50 am
by wworld7
I am not crazy about fluff.
No roads is fine with me.
RE: Roads
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:24 am
by siRkid
It was the first question I asked when I started testing. I don't even think about it now. The game works very well without them.
RE: Roads
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:41 pm
by Montbrun
Santa brought me the first two volumes of Glantz's new series (a trilogy - the last volume comes out this spring) - "Road to Stalingrad," and "Armageddon in Stalingrad." When planning for Fall Blau, the Germans took particular interest in the rail and road network. From German reports, the only real usable roads, especially running East - West, were the service roads following the rail lines.
RE: Roads
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:43 pm
by vinnie71
And they were the only ones that didn't degrade quickly from overuse and during the muddy seasons. The bulk of Russian roads at that time, indeed except for the highways, were dirt tracks, in game terms, little better than an open hexes
RE: Roads
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:58 am
by JJKettunen
Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.
RE: Roads
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:51 am
by jaw
ORIGINAL: Keke
Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.
As I said previously, roads are "simulated" by the fact that it takes less movement points to move through friendly controlled hexes (regardless of terrain) than "disputed" hexes. The penalty for moving through hexes you don't control reflects the greater caution of combat movement (a combination of road and cross-country movement) necessary when you're moving through enemy terrain and column or road movement when you're moving behind your own lines.
Therefore, road movement is in the game but the roads themselves aren't. Given the scale of the game, I think this is both a simplier and more elegant solution than actual roads cluttering the map.
RE: Roads
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:05 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: jaw
ORIGINAL: Keke
Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.
As I said previously, roads are "simulated" by the fact that it takes less movement points to move through friendly controlled hexes (regardless of terrain) than "disputed" hexes. The penalty for moving through hexes you don't control reflects the greater caution of combat movement (a combination of road and cross-country movement) necessary when you're moving through enemy terrain and column or road movement when you're moving behind your own lines.
Therefore, road movement is in the game but the roads themselves aren't. Given the scale of the game, I think this is both a simplier and more elegant solution than actual roads cluttering the map.
I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.
RE: Roads
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:13 pm
by jaw
ORIGINAL: Keke
I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.
There is a rail line running from Minsk to Moscow and the Axis player will usually send a railroad repair unit up that line for precisely the supply concerns you mention.
RE: Roads
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:01 am
by critter
ORIGINAL: jaw
ORIGINAL: Keke
I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.
There is a rail line running from Minsk to Moscow and the Axis player will usually send a railroad repair unit up that line for precisely the supply concerns you mention.
Ok you got 5 rail repair units that you can move. Got that...
How do the ones attached to HQ's that you don't assign to combat units work on rail repair? Do they fill in the side lines? Increase the distance of the lines your working on?
I'm assuming we are talking about combat Engs. Is there a bonus for using them against fortified units? Don't understand why you'd not want to use them to convert rail hexes.
RE: Roads
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:41 am
by elmo3
ORIGINAL: critter
Ok you got 5 rail repair units that you can move. Got that...
How do the ones attached to HQ's that you don't assign to combat units work on rail repair? Do they fill in the side lines? Increase the distance of the lines your working on?
I'm assuming we are talking about combat Engs. Is there a bonus for using them against fortified units? Don't understand why you'd not want to use them to convert rail hexes.
Construction battalions are assigned by the AI to damaged rail hexes and will attempt to repair them. Depending on the level of damage and the weather they may finish the job in one turn or take longer. They won't move into or adjacent to a hex with a player controlled rail repair unit so generally they do repair behind the lines from partisan activity or to fill in the gaps. These construction units are not the same as engineers in that engineers do not do rail repair.