Page 1 of 2
F4U-1 Corsairs slaughter my strike groups
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:43 pm
by hermanhum
I am in 05/43 as a Japanese player and I am attacking bases defended by a single squadron of F4U-1 Corsairs (and a few F4F Wildcats). I send in attack groups of over 100 A6M3a fighters to escort the bombers at 10,000 ft from a distance of 2 hexes. The fighter squadrons have average experience levels between 60-70 and fatigue is non-existent. My groups are getting massacred every time. For the loss of 2 Corsairs, I will lose 40+ fighters. It isn't a single instance of bad luck, but recurs quite consistently.
Is there anything I can do to keep my planes from getting virtually annihilated? I haven't even come up against an F6F Hellcat yet and cringe about what will happen when the F4U-1Ds appear. [X(]
Thanks in advance for any advice you folks might have.
RE: F4U-1 Corsairs slaughter my strike groups
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:24 pm
by khyberbill
Try sweeping first for a few turns then send in the bombers.
Problem
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:25 pm
by hermanhum
Thank you for the advice. I tried it a few times now and get the same results.
100+ A6M3 Zeroes vs.
12 Corsairs + 12 Wildcats
40 Zeroes shot down for 5 claims in return.
Any other suggestions?
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:13 am
by Capt. Harlock
Any other suggestions?
Switch to Admiral's Edition.
Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:56 am
by hermanhum
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Any other suggestions?
Switch to Admiral's Edition.
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:38 pm
by n01487477
IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.
You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.
Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:50 pm
by Misconduct
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Any other suggestions?
Switch to Admiral's Edition.
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
You basically got to realize, anything beyond 1943 the Allies rule the skies in aircraft, I mean in my final campaign recently, I was getting 10:1 kill ratio with Hellcats and Corsairs are far superior.
Things like Speed is the major factor, and altitude, and turn radius. Basically the A6m is outclassed completely by hellcats/corsairs/p51/p38/p47/spit8.
Simple put the only thing the zero can do is out turn everyone of these planes, but the corsair for example, have speed, armor, firepower so they can simply pick a fight or run. I mean to escape a zero all a corsair pilot has to do is dive and the A6m can't follow. The only japanese aircraft before 1943 that can compete with corsairs on a somewhat limited ground is the Ki-61. Beyond that I would say start pumping out N1K george's and Ki84s.
Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:39 pm
by hermanhum
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time and effort with such a careful analysis.
I am only playing the AI, atm, and the 10:1 loss ratio (in its favour) is just about right.
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:58 pm
by htuna
ORIGINAL: n01487477
IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.
You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.
Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?
I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:03 pm
by Misconduct
ORIGINAL: cmurphy625
ORIGINAL: n01487477
IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.
You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.
Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?
I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?
Yes, even if you use mods you want to check out the aircraft comparison chart, its a program called WITP tracker that has it. But remember stock aircraft are far different from mods, so you want to keep an eye on aircraft coming out etc to see how it stacks with your opponents.
RE: Problem
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:50 pm
by khyberbill
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.
RE: Problem
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:53 am
by n01487477
ORIGINAL: cmurphy625
I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?
Tracker for Witp is available here ...
http://sites.google.com/site/witptracker2/
forum link
tm.asp?m=1774229
Fair Winds and calm seas!
RE: Problem
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:40 am
by htuna
Thanks!!!
RE: Problem
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:31 pm
by Capt. Harlock
ORIGINAL: khyberbill
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.
khyerbill has it in a nutshell. It's not a bug or defective behavior -- the combat resolution engines (A-to-A and others) have been revamped for AE, and so you can expect different results.
RE: Problem
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:45 am
by Misconduct
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
ORIGINAL: khyberbill
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.
khyerbill has it in a nutshell. It's not a bug or defective behavior -- the combat resolution engines (A-to-A and others) have been revamped for AE, and so you can expect different results.
results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.
RE: Problem
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:42 am
by tocaff
Statistics require that a very large sample prove them out, yet just being in the ballpark is pretty good for a game. There are so many variables: pilot exp, fatigue, morale, range of mission, mission type and altitude advantage just to name some. Think about it, would you rather be in a Zero or Corsair with your rear end on the line? Granted in AE things have been toned down a bit, but there will always be some who will find fault. It's a compelling game, but it is a game.
RE: Problem
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:16 pm
by khyberbill
results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.
In one of my current PBEMs I was consistently getting between 2:1 and 4:1 against A6M3s and Tojos on the dark skies above Darwin. The P-38s and P-40s could not sweep the skies, but once I was able to put 40 corsairs in the air at once, the skies were quickly swept of foes. On a side note, I have not seen a clear sky over Darwin since battles began there in June of 42, now April of 43. Not a place I would want to visit, severe storms almost every day in AE!
RE: Problem
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:09 pm
by Misconduct
ORIGINAL: khyberbill
results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.
In one of my current PBEMs I was consistently getting between 2:1 and 4:1 against A6M3s and Tojos on the dark skies above Darwin. The P-38s and P-40s could not sweep the skies, but once I was able to put 40 corsairs in the air at once, the skies were quickly swept of foes. On a side note, I have not seen a clear sky over Darwin since battles began there in June of 42, now April of 43. Not a place I would want to visit, severe storms almost every day in AE!
Your making me drool over AE, i'm slowly pecking away in my final campaign in WITP, date is 12/43, just landed next to Manila, so far its been one pretty good game, however japan has really disappeared since the battle of port moresby, I rarely see planes in the air or any japanese ships. Guess the AI can only do so much when it has absolutely no oil.
RE: Problem
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:56 am
by dwg
ORIGINAL: Misconduct
You basically got to realize, anything beyond 1943 the Allies rule the skies in aircraft, I mean in my final campaign recently, I was getting 10:1 kill ratio with Hellcats and Corsairs are far superior.
Historically the Corsair's kill ratio is around 11:1 if memory serves, but that's in an environment where the Corsairs were typically engaging at parity or with the upper hand in numbers of aircraft and often against pilots with lesser experience. 10 to 1 odds against relatively experienced opposition should not let them achieve the same kill ratio.
RE: Problem
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:02 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Any other suggestions?
Switch to Admiral's Edition.
If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.
it´s not a bug it´s working as designed [;)] took us years to accept that it´s not a bug. AE is better but there will still be completely loopsided results. Like cap Harlock already suggested, switch to AE, it´s an improvement. You can still experience happenings like 130 Allied ac of all types shot down for the loss of 3 Zeros for example (a recent happening on the AE forum) so I expect to see the same happening vice versa too. But in general, AE is better.