Matrix Games Forums

War in the Pacific
Admiral’s Edition
“4th Circle Mod”

Many of you might remember the Thread in WitP regarding creation of a 4th Circle Alternate History for an enhanced Japan Mod. Here is my initial proposal that I sent to Thomas and Michael last night:

Vision

The entire Mod is designed upon Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku’s career. I’ve gone through and read several of the Yamamoto biographies and will footnote the alternate history to back-up the Mod. Essentially the Mod revolves around the Admiral ‘winning’ three arguments that were historically ‘lost’ prior to the war. His successful arguments affect several aspects of the Imperial Fleet’s construction, air, and ground unit planning/composition.

We are bound by history so these changes are not TOO dramatic. The Air changes begin in 1936 (with him in charge of the Aeronautics Department), ground in 1938 (using his popularity), and naval construction in 1939/1940 (as Navy Minister). As Navy Minister (which in this Mod he accepts instead of C-in-C) he has the power to push through changes. The end result is to create a slightly stronger opening Japan, a much stronger Japan in the middle years, and a destroyed Japan in 1945…

Changes/Alterations

Air---Yamamoto’s desire to accelerate and expand the Naval Air Research Arm of the Fleet succeeds.

1. The Zero, Betty, and Emily come in a few months earlier.

2. Naval Air is slightly expanded by start of the war.

3. Follow-on engine as well as airframe design is reinforced and expanded.

4. There are no diversions into other Fighter Airframes---the Zero is the fighter for the war. There is no Jack. The Zero design team focuses its entire energy to improving their superb opening version of the plane.

5. The 2nd Generation Naval Aircraft Research is expanded so Judy, Jill, Betty 2, and Frances come in earlier.

6. Pilot training expands slightly with a rotation policy instituted.

The changes allow for the Fleet to be fully stocked with modern aircraft on December 7, 1941. Several existing units gain the newer aircraft and two new Air Flotillas are created at Hiroshima and Kagoshima. The Japanese gain about 225 additional planes and pilots. The vast majority of them are in a training stage at Hiroshima and Kagoshima (180 planes between them).

Ground---Correctly foreseeing the need for Japan to add engineering equipment (steam-shovels, rollers, and tractors) to create, maintain, and expand airfield/base construction, the Admiral is able to successfully lobby for the building of three small factories providing the badly needed equipment. The Japanese economy isn’t able to produce much but it serves to help in the areas described above.

Once this has been accomplished, the TO&E of Japanese Naval Ground units changes. Construction Battalions gain an Engineering Squad and one earthmover, Base Forces gain two of the above, and Naval Headquarters end up with three Squads and three machines.

Fleet Construction---Seeing the limitations of Japanese shipbuilding Yamamoto successfully arguments for the consolidation and specialization of Japanese naval ship construction within the Home Islands. Instead of small ship orders being spread around, ALL DDs are ordered through one yard, while CLs have the same, and so on. This allows for faster construction and a more streamlined ordering process.

Several smaller merchant yards are converted to naval construction and most importantly two new cruiser/CV-sized construction slips are added (at great cost). While this hurts the merchant fleet, it allows the Japanese continue the expansion of the fleet.

The most important battle that he wins is to prevent construction of the second pair of Yamato-Class Battleships. Instead, he convinces the ‘Fleet’ Faction to build a new pair of modern, fast battlecruisers to serve as the eyes of the mighty Yamato/Musashi. In exchange for the two capital ships, the ‘air-minded’ Admirals gain a pair of improved Shokaku-Class CVs. Additionally, the new design for the Taiho-Class armored CVs gains momentum and a second is ordered also.

Given the Japanese proclivity for detailed organization, the 4th Circle planning orders further two more Tone-Class CAs, an AA variant of the Oyodo-Class (4 ships total), and 10 additional Moon-Class AA DDs.

Total 4th Circle Planning:
2 BC (Ikoma and Kawachi)
2 CV (Improved-Shokaku)
2 CV (Taiho-Class)
2 CA (Tone-Class)
4 CL (Agano-Class)
4 CLAA (Oyodo-Class)
10 DD Additional on top of existing numbered ordered.

Beyond new construction, the Admiral speeds up the conversion of the ‘Shadow Fleet’ so that nearly all possible ships are converted by the Spring of 1942.

He also wins the argument on the value of the 3.9” gun turret to become the mainstay of Japanese AA defense by 1943. A new armament plant is build exclusively for this purpose. Plans are made to exchange obsolete 5” AA guns w/the new 3.9” guns by summer 1944.

Once the war begins, Yamamoto sees his vision confirmed as carriers rule the waves. He pushes for the conversion of all ships remaining that could be useful as Carriers and oversees the refitting of obsolescent warships (CLs) to more powerful AA Escort.

Specific Additions
New Warships
2 BC (Ikoma and Kawachi) Mid-1943
These are the warships the Alaska-Class were built to fight! See BC Kawachi description: 12.9” Guns and 31,000 Tons

2 CV (Improved-Shokaku) Mid-1943
3,000 Ton addition to displacement, 5” AA replaced with 3.9” AA, 81 planes, and 10-15% improvement in durability.

2 CV (Taiho-Class) 1944
Both arrive together on Taiho’s original date.

2 CA (Tone-Class) Late-1942
Same stats as earlier pair. Named for Japanese rivers.

4 CL (Agano-Class) 1942/1943
Bring these in as pairs in late-1942 and then early-1943.

4 CLAA (Oyodo-Class) 1943/1944
Bring in as pairs in early-1943 and late-1943. Configured as ‘Ring-Defense’ Leaders in the CV TF mounting 8-10 3.9” Turrets. These would be TOUGH little ships!

10 DD Additional on top of existing numbered ordered.
Advance Niizuki and her sisters 3-6 months and add these additions throughout 1943/1944.

Conversions/Delivery Changes
The 4 CS can start conversion into CVLs any time after May 1942 if so ordered. CS/CVL Mizuho will take 15 months instead of 12 to add DD engines and raise her speed to that of her three of sisters.

Advance all CV/CVL conversions by 4-6 months: Shoho complete at start, Ryuho complete in June 1942, Junyo and Hiyo can either come in 3 months earlier (Feb/March) or on their regular delivery date (May/June). If the regular date is chosen then they get better engines and may move at 28 Knots.

Starting in January 1943 all Nagara/Sendai-Class CL can convert into CLAA with 8 3.9” turrets but lose their torpedo tubes.

Early-1943 CV/CVLs get 3.9” upgrade

Late-1943 BC/CA get 3.9” upgrade

Early-1944 BB get 3.9” upgrade

Industry Changes
1. Expand Naval Shipyards by 200 and reorganize. This reflects the two additional large slipways and merchant yard conversions.

2. Cut Merchant yards by 100.

3. Expand HI by 150 points (three new engineering plants and naval expansion needs).

4. Expand Lite Industry by 75 points.

5. Lower resource stockpile by 15-25% at start. This reflects the drain on the economy in getting Japan ready for war.

6. Expand Armaments by 75.

Aircraft Industry
Active Production on Dec 7th:
1. Raise Zero production by 50 with no pool increase

2. Have all Nells converted to Betty factory

3. Emily in production with no Pool increase (Mavis plant converted)

4. Double Val/Kate production with no Pool increase

Engines
1. Mitsubishi +50

2. Add needed engines to reflect increased production of Emily, Betty, Val and Kate.

3. Expand Advanced Engine Research for naval aircraft detailed later

Naval Aircraft Research
1. Japanese bet everything on Zero—No Jack.
a. A6M3 January 1942
b. A6M3a June 1942
c. A6M5 Six months early
d. Skip to best late-war Zero and bring in 6 months early.

2. All naval Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers advance 6 months

3. Naval Bombers
a. Betty 2 Advance 6 months
b. Frances Advance 6 months

December 7th Active Aircraft Changes
1. All active Japanese CV/CVL/CVE start with Zero, Val, and Kate. Any obsolescent planes changed out are added to their starting pool numbers.

2. All Carriers start with FULL plane complements.

3. Two Chutai of Mavis in the Marshalls have Emily and those Mavis are credited to the Pool.

4. Claude Daitai in Indochina upgraded to Zeros. Move Claudes to Pool.

5. Convert two Nell Daitai to Betty and credit the Nells to Pool.

New Aircraft Units (Split between Hiroshima and Kagoshima)
1. 2 Claude Daitai, 2 Nell Daitai, 2 Mavis Chutai, 1 Kate Daitai, and 1 Val Daitai.

2. These units are TRAINING! They start 10-20% less in experience. Usable but need some practice before being dangerous. The planes will have to upgrade as well.

Naval Pilots
1. New unit experience already addressed

2. No expansion of starting Pilot Pool

3. 10-20% expansion of Naval Pilot pipeline

4. Raise initial naval pilot experience by 5%

Ground Units
Existing Unit Changes
1. Naval Construction Battalions—Add one Squad of Engineers and one Machine

2. Small Naval Base Forces—two Squads of Engineers and two Machines

3. Large Naval Base Forces—three Squads of Engineers and three Machines

4. Air Flotilla HQ—four Squads of Engineers and four Machines

New Units
1. Two large BF—one each in Kagoshima and Hiroshima

2. Two Air Flotilla HQ—one each in Kagoshima and Hiroshima

3. These units are deployable but must be bought out with Political Points…

Bases
1. Raise AF at Hiroshima and Kagoshima by 2 (if possible)


Commentary
I see this Mod as strictly an enhanced Japan ‘what might have been.’ The Mod has been tooled to reflect realistic changes as well as shortcomings in doing so for Japan.

The Japanese will start with a few upgraded planes, slightly improved engineers, and one additional CVL. The real changes won’t really impact the campaign until late-1942/early-1943.

Changes to the Allied side shouldn’t be much at all.

If we want to sweeten the pot, we could look at adding the British CV with Force Z at Singapore. This change would need to see the addition of 2-4 DDs as escorts for the CV. I am certain we can find the names of the DDs that were escorting her.

Looks great John , I do like a good mod once the vanilla is finished (about 3 years for me at my slow rate)..

I do love to see the effort and time the players and volunteer devs put into this game. Kudos to everyone who has the time and inclination to make a more varied game for all us plebs .. [&o] thank you.

A great idea for a mod, and I hope it will be completed. Benefits from not constructing the second pair of Yamato-class BBs seem to be far too massive, though...

And while 100mm/65 was a great weapon in RL, it is still considerably inferior to 127/40 in AE. Just saying its stats need a boost, so that supposed improvement won't nerf Japanese AA capabilities instead.

Was the 127/40 a realistic to produce weapon in 1942/1943?  It is my impression that the 3.9 was ready and due to that simple reality, it would be the gun to use in the timeframe. Am I wrong with that thought?

4. Double Val/Kate production with no Pool increase

Just a quick note, in scenarios 1 and 2 Kate production starts at 0.

While the game rates the 10cm/65 as inferior to the 12.7cm/40 in terms of AA rating, I've found that this is not the whole story. The high RoF of the smaller weapon compensates more than would be apparent just from the numbers. However, I agree that it is still underrated ingame, so I upped its RoF for my scenarios slightly.

Theres also the option of considering an all new gun, combining the best features of both. Something like a 12cm/60. This could have a ROF approaching that of the 10cm with a shell almost as heavy as the 12.7cm. It would be somewhat analogous to the USN 5in/54.

Historically, production of the 10cm/65 was not as high as it should have been, and most mountings ended up as land based AA. However, had there been more ships available that needed it, and had there been plans to refit existing ships with it, more may have been produced. Especially in a scenario like this where Japan is thinking ahead.

I would argue for two more 'Mogami/Suzuya' type CA's for the follow on CA's, rather than 'Tone' class ones. Historically the Ibuki class CA's under construction were based on the later Mogami class. Then again, the extra scouting ability of the Tone's might be useful.

Overall, I like the changes you're proposing. Should make for an interesting scenario.

Thanks Juan.  Perhaps a RofF increase for the 3.9 would do the trick.
 
I know the Ibuki's were to be set along the Mogami lone but I've had little chance to find Stats.  Do you have a resource that might help here?  Perhaps we could have two Tone's and two Ibuki's with the latter having the opportunity to convert over to CVL?  Might be an idea worth thinking on.
 

I am reviving my "Yamamoto's Vision" Mod Thread.  Been doing a bit of work and am thinking of getting things up and started. The beginning of the Thread saw my lenghty Post regarding the changes.

Would like to seriously take some imput and then see what we can put together.  This would be a Japanese alternate history Mod where changes would occur but ONLY for the Navy (some naval air, some naval ground, and a few ships).

Proposed thinking for Naval Air Changes:
 
Air---Yamamoto’s desire to accelerate and expand the Naval Air Research Arm of the Fleet succeeds.

1. The Zero, Betty, and Emily come in a few months earlier.

2. Naval Air is slightly expanded by start of the war.

3. Follow-on engine as well as airframe design is reinforced and expanded.

4. There are no diversions into other Fighter Airframes---the Zero is the fighter for the war. There is no Jack. The Zero design team focuses its entire energy to improving their superb opening version of the plane.

5. The 2nd Generation Naval Aircraft Research is expanded so Judy, Jill, Betty 2, and Frances come in earlier.

6. Pilot training expands slightly with a rotation policy instituted.

The changes allow for the Fleet to be fully stocked with modern aircraft on December 7, 1941. Several existing units gain the newer aircraft and two new Air Flotillas are created at Hiroshima and Kagoshima. The Japanese gain about 225 additional planes and pilots. The vast majority of them are in a training stage at Hiroshima and Kagoshima (180 planes between them).
 
Aircraft Industry
Active Production on Dec 7th:
1. Raise Zero production by 50 with no pool increase

2. Have all Nells converted to Betty factory

3. Emily in production with no Pool increase (Mavis plant converted)

4. Double Val/Kate production with no Pool increase

Engines
1. Mitsubishi +50

2. Add needed engines to reflect increased production of Emily, Betty, Val and Kate.

3. Expand Advanced Engine Research for naval aircraft detailed later

Naval Aircraft Research
1. Japanese bet everything on Zero—No Jack.
a. A6M3 January 1942
b. A6M3a June 1942
c. A6M5 Six months early
d. Skip to best late-war Zero and bring in 6 months early.

2. All naval Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers advance 6 months

3. Naval Bombers
a. Betty 2 Advance 6 months
b. Frances Advance 6 months

December 7th Active Aircraft Changes
1. All active Japanese CV/CVL/CVE start with Zero, Val, and Kate. Any obsolescent planes changed out are added to their starting pool numbers.

2. All Carriers start with FULL plane complements.

3. Two Chutai of Mavis in the Marshalls have Emily and those Mavis are credited to the Pool.

4. Claude Daitai in Indochina upgraded to Zeros. Move Claudes to Pool.

5. Convert two Nell Daitai to Betty and credit the Nells to Pool.

New Aircraft Units (Split between Hiroshima and Kagoshima)
1. 2 Claude Daitai, 2 Nell Daitai, 2 Mavis Chutai, 1 Kate Daitai, and 1 Val Daitai.

2. These units are TRAINING! They start 10-20% less in experience. Usable but need some practice before being dangerous. The planes will have to upgrade as well.

Naval Pilots
1. New unit experience already addressed

2. No expansion of starting Pilot Pool

3. 10-20% expansion of Naval Pilot pipeline

4. Raise initial naval pilot experience by 5%

Ground---Correctly foreseeing the need for Japan to add engineering equipment (steam-shovels, rollers, and tractors) to create, maintain, and expand airfield/base construction, the Admiral is able to successfully lobby for the building of three small factories providing the badly needed equipment. The Japanese economy isn’t able to produce much but it serves to help in the areas described above.

Once this has been accomplished, the TO&E of Japanese Naval Ground units changes. Construction Battalions gain an Engineering Squad and one earthmover, Base Forces gain two of the above, and Naval Headquarters end up with three Squads and three machines.

Ground Units
Existing Unit Changes
1. Naval Construction Battalions—Add one Squad of Engineers and one Machine

2. Small Naval Base Forces—two Squads of Engineers and two Machines

3. Large Naval Base Forces—three Squads of Engineers and three Machines

4. Air Flotilla HQ—four Squads of Engineers and four Machines

New Units
1. Two large BF—one each in Kagoshima and Hiroshima

2. Two Air Flotilla HQ—one each in Kagoshima and Hiroshima

3. These units are deployable but must be bought out with Political Points…

Fleet Construction---Seeing the limitations of Japanese shipbuilding Yamamoto successfully arguments for the consolidation and specialization of Japanese naval ship construction within the Home Islands. Instead of small ship orders being spread around, ALL DDs are ordered through one yard, while CLs have the same, and so on. This allows for faster construction and a more streamlined ordering process.

Several smaller merchant yards are converted to naval construction and most importantly two new cruiser/CV-sized construction slips are added (at great cost). While this hurts the merchant fleet, it allows the Japanese continue the expansion of the fleet.

The most important battle that he wins is to prevent construction of the second pair of Yamato-Class Battleships. Instead, he convinces the ‘Fleet’ Faction to build a new pair of modern, fast battlecruisers to serve as the eyes of the mighty Yamato/Musashi. In exchange for the two capital ships, the ‘air-minded’ Admirals gain a pair of improved Shokaku-Class CVs. Additionally, the new design for the Taiho-Class armored CVs gains momentum and a second is ordered also.

Given the Japanese proclivity for detailed organization, the 4th Circle planning orders further two more Tone-Class CAs, an AA variant of the Oyodo-Class (4 ships total), and 10 additional Moon-Class AA DDs.

Total 4th Circle Planning:
2 BC (Ikoma and Kawachi)
2 CV (Improved-Shokaku)
2 CV (Taiho-Class)
2 CA (Tone-Class)
4 CL (Agano-Class)
4 CLAA (Oyodo-Class)
10 DD Additional on top of existing numbered ordered.

Beyond new construction, the Admiral speeds up the conversion of the ‘Shadow Fleet’ so that nearly all possible ships are converted by the Spring of 1942.

He also wins the argument on the value of the 3.9” gun turret to become the mainstay of Japanese AA defense by 1943. A new armament plant is build exclusively for this purpose. Plans are made to exchange obsolete 5” AA guns w/the new 3.9” guns by summer 1944.

Once the war begins, Yamamoto sees his vision confirmed as carriers rule the waves. He pushes for the conversion of all ships remaining that could be useful as Carriers and oversees the refitting of obsolescent warships (CLs) to more powerful AA Escort.

Specific Additions
New Warships
2 BC (Ikoma and Kawachi) Mid-1943
These are the warships the Alaska-Class were built to fight! See BC Kawachi description: 12.9” Guns and 31,000 Tons

2 CV (Improved-Shokaku) Mid-1943
3,000 Ton addition to displacement, 5” AA replaced with 3.9” AA, 81 planes, and 10-15% improvement in durability.

2 CV (Taiho-Class) 1944
Both arrive together on Taiho’s original date.

2 CA (Tone-Class) Late-1942
Same stats as earlier pair. Named for Japanese rivers.

4 CL (Agano-Class) 1942/1943
Bring these in as pairs in late-1942 and then early-1943.

4 CLAA (Oyodo-Class) 1943/1944
Bring in as pairs in early-1943 and late-1943. Configured as ‘Ring-Defense’ Leaders in the CV TF mounting 8-10 3.9” Turrets. These would be TOUGH little ships!

10 DD Additional on top of existing numbered ordered.
Advance Niizuki and her sisters 3-6 months and add these additions throughout 1943/1944.

Conversions/Delivery Changes
The 4 CS can start conversion into CVLs any time after May 1942 if so ordered. CS/CVL Mizuho will take 15 months instead of 12 to add DD engines and raise her speed to that of her three of sisters.

Advance all CV/CVL conversions by 4-6 months: Shoho complete at start, Ryuho complete in June 1942, Junyo and Hiyo can either come in 3 months earlier (Feb/March) or on their regular delivery date (May/June). If the regular date is chosen then they get better engines and may move at 28 Knots.

Starting in January 1943 all Nagara/Sendai-Class CL can convert into CLAA with 8 3.9” turrets but lose their torpedo tubes.

Early-1943 CV/CVLs get 3.9” upgrade

Late-1943 BC/CA get 3.9” upgrade

Early-1944 BB get 3.9” upgrade

Industry Changes
1. Expand Naval Shipyards by 200 and reorganize. This reflects the two additional large slipways and merchant yard conversions.

2. Cut Merchant yards by 100.

3. Expand HI by 150 points (three new engineering plants and naval expansion needs).

4. Expand Lite Industry by 75 points.

5. Lower resource stockpile by 15-25% at start. This reflects the drain on the economy in getting Japan ready for war.

6. Expand Armaments by 75.

I am glad to see you brought it back. I am really enjoying da babes mod but would like to see what happens with a "different" pool of Japanese warships added to the mix.

Thinking about basing it on Scen 2??

I think that would be a good assumption.  I know that there are additional DDs present for that.  I'd like to add units.  IF Scen 2 is easier to Mod from fine.  The Scen 1 would be more accurate to use as a template. 
 
We'll have to see what we can come up with.  I won't be able to add to this for a few hours as I have the boys and we're watching Nim's Island as well as having London Broil for dinner

Interesting thoughts John, plausible even. Talking about non-historical mods, this is the type I like. Please keep us posted

The goal is to make the scenario a 'realistic' what if when it comes to Mods.  This would not be extreme, it simply assumes a stronger voice for Yamamoto.  All the things I want to implement are thoughts voiced by him.  I've picked up several biographies of him and can cite each of the choices and changes through those books.
 
The goal is create a slightly stronger Japan at start, stronger Japan in late-42/1943, and then let events take their course in 1944-45.  This Mod should make the Japanese highly competitive in the mid-portion of the war.
 
 

I don't want to strengthen the Allies in this Mod. It is a alternate Japanese Mod but there are a few things that might be added to make it more itneresting. Thoughts:

1. We could place, at sea, an Aussie or New Zealand Brigade neading for Noumea, Suva, or Port Moresby. They would be halfway on Dec 7th.

2. Could do the same thing but add an American RCT doing the same thing but heading for the Line Islands, Tahiti, or Pago Pago.

Each possible convoy could have an Escort with it. In the American case, a CV could be protecting the movement.

Simply thoughts...

I wasn't thinking so much about giving the Allies new toys as much as moving some production forward. Nothing specific in mind yet. 

Just completed this exchange with Juan:

On 5 March 2010 23:29, John 3rd from Matrix Games Forums <jrc_3@msn.com> wrote:

Juan--I am curious if you might be willing to help me create the 4th Circle Mod I have written about? I'm getting more comfortable with the Editor but am scared to death of trying to create a Mod by myself.

What might you think?

I will bring my notes page back to the front of the Mod Section of the Forum for you to look at. All the changes are localized to the Japanese Navy (aircraft, some unit changes, and several new ships).

Warmly,
John

From: Juan Gomez
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 12:31 AM
To: John 3rd
Subject: Re: 4th Circle


John,

I've had a read of the thread again, and I remembered commenting on it earlier too.

Of course I would be willing to help, just let me know how. I'm pretty familiar with the editor, and I can also take a shot at any artwork you want though if you can get one of the real artists to help you then obviously I cant compare. I can also take shots at ship durability and other design values since I sort of reverse engineered the forumlae to use when building my own scenarios.

If you are basing it on Scenario 2 you may have to reshuffle the names of some of the additional ships, especially DDs, as that scenario also adds some, in addition to more CLs. My suggestion would be to work off Scen 1 if you can, and then include those changes from Scen 2 that you find useful in addition to your own.

You may know that I am working on a new set of scenarios for my own mod, and these include a version of Scenario 1 with my changes to naval guns, torpedoes, ammo, aircraft weapons and so forth. If it is alright with you, I may consider doing a version of your scenario with these changes as well, or if you wish I can provide any details you want on them if you want to include them yourself - some of them, like the torpedo and ammo changes, are not radical alterations.

Thanks,
Juan


Hey Juan.

Thanks for the thoughts and I greatly appreciate the help. I concur that we should work off of Scenario One. What are the changes you describe in your 4th paragraph below (Torps, ammo, etc...)? Artwork would be cool too.

I'll begin by creating a set of names and classes for the new ships (mostly the DDs). The new Capital ships already have names and I'll get them to you. Much of what is needed you already somewhat have in the CV-Enhanced Mod. Figure we can go through it area-by-area: Ships and upgrades, Naval Air changes, then Naval LCUs, and finally industry.

Have a fairly busy day planned today but will try to write more when I can. I am going to copy this exchange of email and place it in the Thread.

Thanks again.
John

PS I am adding Michael to this email since he is helping as well.

I've got some time before going to Caucus Training this morning so I thought I'd begin the work by examining some of the CVs to be worked with in the Mod.&nbsp; The pair that vex me is Junyo and Hiyo.&nbsp; The Mod assumes an acceleration of conversion and/or work on the Shadow Fleet.&nbsp; All of us know the marginal use of these two large passenger liner converts.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Let me throw out proposed thoughts for them within this scenario:
&nbsp;
1.&nbsp; They enter service as built (about 25 Kts with a marginally decent air group of 51 planes) but slightly earlier.&nbsp; The ships enter service in January and March 1942 respectively.
&nbsp;
or
&nbsp;
2.&nbsp; Their engines are re-tooled and made USEFUL.&nbsp; This change would raise their speed to 28 or 30 Knots so they could better keep up with the Fleet Carriers.&nbsp; If that route is chosen then they enter on their historic dates in May and July 1942 but with real engines.
&nbsp;
or
&nbsp;
3.&nbsp; Could their hulls have been&nbsp;converted any better allowing for a slightly larger aircraft complement?&nbsp; Would there be ANY chance of them entering into service with a complement on the par of CarDiv2 (21 Z, 21 V, 21 K)&nbsp; This would&nbsp;mean the addition of 12 planes.&nbsp; Could that have been done within their hulls and hangars?
&nbsp;
If the answer is yes to 3 then how much longer would their conversion have taken?&nbsp; Would that add another 3 months?
&nbsp;
or
&nbsp;
4.&nbsp; If 2 and 3 are possible then how long would the combined change take?
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Once again this Mod is designed on simply Yamamoto moving things forward or tweaking them.&nbsp; My knowledge base is fairly limited when it comes to these two conversions.&nbsp; The simple thing to do is bring them in earlier as designed.&nbsp;&nbsp;Changing the engines would have meant more work but was possible.&nbsp; Don't know anything regarding the air group.
&nbsp;
I know this has been discussed over in WitP.&nbsp; Anyone out there willing to throw out an educated opinion on the subject?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;