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You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:45 pm
by crsutton
I had 50,000 experienced chinese troops in a fortifed city hex in wooded rough terrain. My opponent moved about 20 Japanese units over the river into my hex. Result, one Japanese unit shock attacked at 1-200 odds. End results were "2" Japaneses combat units lost and about 5 non combat. About 40 Japanese units were disrupted. I actually lost more squads. That just blows. Now his whole army is over the river and intact. I suspect they will throw me out in of the city in about a week or two.
A river crossing againts dug in opposition was just about the most difficult operation possible in WWII.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:50 pm
by Canoerebel
Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across. It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack. But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack. It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects. This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.
Ah, the war in China.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:58 pm
by crsutton
Well that may be true for high quality Japanese units. However if you try to reinforce a Chinese stack with a unit over a river-even if you are crossing a hexside that you control, you will almost always incur a shock attack and wreck the Chinese unit. My guess is that I have lost over 1,000 squads trying to reinforce over river hexes. My guess is that experience is a factor, but Chinese units cannot even reinforce over a road bridge hex that they control without facing a shock attack.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:59 pm
by khyberbill
That is what I thought but I have sent corps across rivers in China into contested hexes and the corps shock attacked every time with devastating results for me. Perhaps they missed the bridgehead. Losing 177 infantry squads in an attack is not good for the Chinese.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:16 pm
by treespider
ORIGINAL: crsutton
I had 50,000 experienced
...define experienced.
chinese troops in a fortifed city hex in wooded rough terrain. My opponent moved about 20 Japanese units over the river into my hex. Result, one Japanese unit shock attacked at 1-200 odds. End results were "2" Japaneses combat units lost and about 5 non combat. About 40 Japanese units were disrupted.
When you say units do you mean squads?
I actually lost more squads. That just blows. Now his whole army is over the river and intact. I suspect they will throw me out in of the city in about a week or two.
From your description this does not sound like it is working as intended....
A river crossing againts dug in opposition was just about the most difficult operation possible in WWII.
But they were made....
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:23 pm
by treespider
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across. It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack.
But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack. It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects. This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.
Ah, the war in China.
The Auto-shock attack is based upon relative AV's in the hex...highly experienced Japanese units MAY have an easier chance to achieve the requisite AV ratio...whereas low experienced Chinese many times cannot. I think the ratio is 1:2 or 1:3...
In other words if the side entering a contested hex across a friendly river hexside does not have the required ratio of MODIFIED AV's in the hex then a shock attack ensues...
HOWEVER from the above descriptions something seems amiss....please post a save to the tech support forum.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:34 pm
by crsutton
Tree,
45 to 55 experience, which is pretty much "crack" troops for the Chinese [:D] Morale was good for most of them. This has been SOP in China as far as I can see. The problem seems to be that only one unit shock attacks no matter how many are crossing the river. As for the losses, well Japanese units never seem to lose that many squads even when on the losing end of a shock attack. That does not bother me so much as the fact that he is over the river without really any loss or disruption on all of his units but the one.
the
I will post the file when I get home this evening.
ORIGINAL: treespider
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across. It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack.
But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack. It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects. This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.
Ah, the war in China.
The Auto-shock attack is based upon relative AV's in the hex...highly experienced Japanese units MAY have an easier chance to achieve the requisite AV ratio...whereas low experienced Chinese many times cannot. I think the ratio is 1:2 or 1:3...
In other words if the side entering a contested hex across a friendly river hexside cannot achieve the required ratio of MODIFIED AV's then a shock attack ensues...
HOWEVER from the above descriptions something seems amiss....please post a save to the tech support forum.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:47 am
by bklooste
ORIGINAL: crsutton
I had 50,000 experienced chinese troops in a fortifed city hex in wooded rough terrain. My opponent moved about 20 Japanese units over the river into my hex. Result, one Japanese unit shock attacked at 1-200 odds. End results were "2" Japaneses combat units lost and about 5 non combat. About 40 Japanese units were disrupted. I actually lost more squads. That just blows. Now his whole army is over the river and intact. I suspect they will throw me out in of the city in about a week or two.
A river crossing againts dug in opposition was just about the most difficult operation possible in WWII.
Sounds like the old 1 unit shock attack trick ( the 1:200 odds) and the rest moved up, there should be a HR on this or at least some discussion. Now it can happen ie the Fall of France (at the Marne ) and the Kiev battles in 43 to name just a few but needs some serious planning , air support and the enemy wrong footed.
Oh where did you get the 50K experienced troops.. I though the experienced Chinese had lower exp than the US greens ..
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:01 am
by crsutton
ORIGINAL: bklooste
ORIGINAL: crsutton
I had 50,000 experienced chinese troops in a fortifed city hex in wooded rough terrain. My opponent moved about 20 Japanese units over the river into my hex. Result, one Japanese unit shock attacked at 1-200 odds. End results were "2" Japaneses combat units lost and about 5 non combat. About 40 Japanese units were disrupted. I actually lost more squads. That just blows. Now his whole army is over the river and intact. I suspect they will throw me out in of the city in about a week or two.
A river crossing againts dug in opposition was just about the most difficult operation possible in WWII.
Sounds like the old 1 unit shock attack trick ( the 1:200 odds) and the rest moved up, there should be a HR on this or at least some discussion. Now it can happen ie the Fall of France (at the Marne ) and the Kiev battles in 43 to name just a few but needs some serious planning , air support and the enemy wrong footed.
Oh where did you get the 50K experienced troops.. I though the experienced Chinese had lower exp than the US greens ..
Once any raw unit, Dutch, Burmese, Chinese get to 100 prep points for a location (does not have to be in the location) and is out of combat, the unit will start to train up fairly fast. My Chinese units were all in the 40 to 50 range by the end of May. Indian units as well. The trick is to not change the prep location. If you change it in mid stream then the training stops until you reach 100 prep points again. It is a bit of a tough call in China as you will be fighting the initial battles with some infantry units not prepped for the cities they are defending but I find that it is better to take the lost cities and train up the units rather than prepping them for defense for cities that you are going to lose anyways. Get the experience up and they will start to hold ground.
Some of the Indian units start with experience and morale below ten. But they train up fairly fast.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:42 pm
by Titanwarrior89
So river defense doesn't work? If so that sucks. Does sound good. Hopefully thats not the case.
ORIGINAL: crsutton
I had 50,000 experienced chinese troops in a fortifed city hex in wooded rough terrain. My opponent moved about 20 Japanese units over the river into my hex. Result, one Japanese unit shock attacked at 1-200 odds. End results were "2" Japaneses combat units lost and about 5 non combat. About 40 Japanese units were disrupted. I actually lost more squads. That just blows. Now his whole army is over the river and intact. I suspect they will throw me out in of the city in about a week or two.
A river crossing againts dug in opposition was just about the most difficult operation possible in WWII.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:19 pm
by treespider
River crossings are NOT broken -
from the Tech support forum -
Seems like the 40th Division was wrecked establishing the bridgehead....
Not Luchow. Crsutton speaks about this particular result from Chihkiang (this is from Japanese CR/other side):
Ground combat at Chihkiang (78,50)
Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 13092 troops, 301 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3056
Defending force 51973 troops, 397 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1458
Japanese adjusted assault: 32
Allied adjusted defense: 6691
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 209 (fort level 5)
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)
Japanese ground losses:
3341 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 122 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Allied ground losses:
112 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Assaulting units:
40th Division
13th Division
22nd Division
116th Division
15th Division
3rd Division
39th Division
55th Infantry Brigade
8th Ind. Engineer Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
RGC Army
11th Army
China Expeditionary Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Engineer Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
13th Army
4th Mortar Battalion
Defending units:
16th Construction Regiment
64th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese/B Corps
5th Construction Regiment
18th Chinese Corps
31st Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
52nd Chinese/A Corps
19th Group Army
27th Group Army
17th Chinese Base Force
18th Chinese Base Force
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My (I am his opponent, playing Japan) 40th Division was completely wrecked and is now less worth less than 100 assault points (before crossing it was a full division of over 400 APs). Cant' really say which units suffered more. Is something wrong here? I don't know. I didn't bridgeheaded the turn before, all units crossed the river the same turn, losses are quite big in terms of disabled squadrons, but not destroyed.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:15 am
by crsutton
ORIGINAL: treespider
River crossings are NOT broken -
from the Tech support forum -
Seems like the 40th Division was wrecked establishing the bridgehead....
Not Luchow. Crsutton speaks about this particular result from Chihkiang (this is from Japanese CR/other side):
Ground combat at Chihkiang (78,50)
Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 13092 troops, 301 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3056
Defending force 51973 troops, 397 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1458
Japanese adjusted assault: 32
Allied adjusted defense: 6691
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 209 (fort level 5)
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)
Japanese ground losses:
3341 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 122 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Allied ground losses:
112 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Assaulting units:
40th Division
13th Division
22nd Division
116th Division
15th Division
3rd Division
39th Division
55th Infantry Brigade
8th Ind. Engineer Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
RGC Army
11th Army
China Expeditionary Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Engineer Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
13th Army
4th Mortar Battalion
Defending units:
16th Construction Regiment
64th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese/B Corps
5th Construction Regiment
18th Chinese Corps
31st Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
52nd Chinese/A Corps
19th Group Army
27th Group Army
17th Chinese Base Force
18th Chinese Base Force
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My (I am his opponent, playing Japan) 40th Division was completely wrecked and is now less worth less than 100 assault points (before crossing it was a full division of over 400 APs). Cant' really say which units suffered more. Is something wrong here? I don't know. I didn't bridgeheaded the turn before, all units crossed the river the same turn, losses are quite big in terms of disabled squadrons, but not destroyed.
Uh, I am not seeing that. He crossed the river in the face of 50,000 Chinese with about seven divisions worth of troops and lost "2" combat squads........
I am trying to figure out some sort of scenario where that would have actually happened. Heck, 2 squads worth of men would have died of natural causes in one day in an army that size. I know that he did take 3300 casualties but when my poor Chinese guys lose a battle they can lose 500 or more squads. I would hardly call the 40th division wrecked as he can just pull it out of line and rest it for a few weeks. Should not a division attacking a level 5 fort over a river, shock attacking at "1-200" odds not just be beat up but virtually wiped out?
I also know that there can be varibles and he just could have had a lucky attack but I pretty much seen large Japanese armies do this over and over again in river crossings.
The river crossings and shock attack does work well with smaller number of units but massive stacks pay a relatively small price to cross a river no matter the oppositon. That is, one unit takes the hit and the others are over the river scot free.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:47 am
by Mistmatz
I believe the FOW for land combat is at about the level it should be for all other parts of the game. Huge. [8D]
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:24 am
by treespider
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Uh, I am not seeing that. He crossed the river in the face of 50,000 Chinese with about seven divisions worth of troops and lost "2" combat squads........
In addition to the 199 disabled squads - which also represent casualties....
I am trying to figure out some sort of scenario where that would have actually happened. Heck, 2 squads worth of men would have died of natural causes in one day in an army that size. I know that he did take 3300 casualties but when my poor Chinese guys lose a battle they can lose 500 or more squads. I would hardly call the 40th division wrecked as he can just pull it out of line and rest it for a few weeks. Should not a division attacking a level 5 fort over a river, shock attacking at "1-200" odds not just be beat up but virtually wiped out?
Seems you have more of an issue with the Ground combat resolution...as that result would have occurred if he had simply shock attacked anyway regardless of the river.
I also know that there can be varibles and he just could have had a lucky attack but I pretty much seen large Japanese armies do this over and over again in river crossings.
The river crossings and shock attack does work well with smaller number of units but massive stacks pay a relatively small price to cross a river no matter the oppositon. That is, one unit takes the hit and the others are over the river scot free.
As BigJ62 -noted there will be a change.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:26 am
by Yakface
I see the same thing in my games. 1 unit trashed the remainder cross in perfect order. . Whether tjhe losses to the forlorn hope are disablements or destroyed depends upon firpower and experence of opposing units. Work OK for small crossings - borked for large ones. There should at least be disruption for other units in the stack and at least a chance that the front unit won't make a bridgehead (with a result like 1-200) and will be thrown back, so the second unit must have a go or the third etc.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:39 pm
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: Yakface
I see the same thing in my games. 1 unit trashed the remainder cross in perfect order. . Whether tjhe losses to the forlorn hope are disablements or destroyed depends upon firpower and experence of opposing units. Work OK for small crossings - borked for large ones. There should at least be disruption for other units in the stack and at least a chance that the front unit won't make a bridgehead (with a result like 1-200) and will be thrown back, so the second unit must have a go or the third etc.
it´s the same with all routines in WITP and AE, as soon as there´s a lot of stuff involved it just goes off the track IMO. Everything works fine as long as you use 3 divs, 3 squadrons, 3 ships... use 30 divs, 30 squadrons and 300 ships and everything gets screwed...
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:40 pm
by crsutton
Well, they said that they have decided to look at it and work on it. That is all I can ask....
''After discussing this with the team we decided to make some changes to better reflect orginal intent meaning all units will now shock attack. "
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:03 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Well, they said that they have decided to look at it and work on it. That is all I can ask....
''After discussing this with the team we decided to make some changes to better reflect orginal intent meaning all units will now shock attack. "
which is the same as it was in WITP. IMO it was a good idea to NOT have all units shock attacking over the river, it was a bad idea to only have ONE unit shock attacking too. IMO there should be a die roll, dependend on what the attacker sends across the river and what the defender has sitting behind the it. You would then end up with parts of your army shock attacking up to all units shock attacking.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:52 am
by FatR
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across. It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack. But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack. It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects. This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.
Ah, the war in China.
Under the latest patch and hotfix this doesn't work. A river crossing into enemy-occupied square triggers a shock attack, even if you already have units there.
RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:44 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: FatR
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across. It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack. But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack. It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects. This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.
Ah, the war in China.
Under the latest patch and hotfix this doesn't work.
A river crossing into enemy-occupied square triggers a shock attack, even if you already have units there.
not always