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We've hit a major problem in our game.

Prussia set up Poland and built up a lot of troops.

Russia declared war on Prussia.

March 1809, Russia occupied Warsaw, Prussia promptly counterattacked beat off the Russian army and sieged (unsuccessfully) Warsaw. This sieging stops Poland being conquered.

May 1809 - Prussia (re)captured Warsaw.

End of turn - Game says that Prussia has conquered Poland, all Polish provinces become part of Prussia, all Polish units disappear.

We have two issues.
1. Clearly there is a bug in the conquest process.
2. Our game is messed up, Prussia has lost a lot of high quality troops at a crucial moment.

Marshall, I think from my backups I can probably give you a host copy of the game from any point in this situation. What do you need to identify the bug ? And can you fix it for us ? If so what situation in the game do you need ?

If you could send me the game rt before Poland becomes conquered. Curious, Should Poland dissolve?

If Poland is conquered, all provinces originally part of the conquering country become unceded home provinces as at the beginning of the game, and all other Polish provinces become ceded provinces.

But the situation David describes should be impossible, for several reasons:

1) Poland should not have been conquered at all, since Prussia besieged Warsaw.

2) If it had been conquered, its provinces should have become ceded provinces. In this case, I believe, they would have to be reconquered individually by Prussia; retaking Warsaw would only return Masovia to Prussian control. That is, it shouldn't be possible for Russia to conquer Poland and Prussia to conquer it back because there would be no Poland to conquer back. (Subject to correction on this point.)

3) Per original rules, even if Russia conquers Poland, Prussia should retain Polish forces until peace is signed or they are all dead. They shouldn't just stand down. I presume, however, that no attempt has been made to code this rule, which could be a bit complicated.

ORIGINAL: ndrose

If Poland is conquered, all provinces originally part of the conquering country become unceded home provinces as at the beginning of the game, and all other Polish provinces become ceded provinces.

But the situation David describes should be impossible, for several reasons:

1) Poland should not have been conquered at all, since Prussia besieged Warsaw.

2) If it had been conquered, its provinces should have become ceded provinces. In this case, I believe, they would have to be reconquered individually by Prussia; retaking Warsaw would only return Masovia to Prussian control. That is, it shouldn't be possible for Russia to conquer Poland and Prussia to conquer it back because there would be no Poland to conquer back. (Subject to correction on this point.)

3) Per original rules, even if Russia conquers Poland, Prussia should retain Polish forces until peace is signed or they are all dead. They shouldn't just stand down. I presume, however, that no attempt has been made to code this rule, which could be a bit complicated.

1. Yes, Russia never had unbesieged occupation of the capital for long enough to conquer it, although they did occupy it for a couple of months, they were besieged during that time. Hence no conquest should have occurred.

2. Poland consisted only of Prussian provinces so all provinces should have become unceded Prussian home nation provinces - this occurred correctly. If any Austrian or Russian provinces were involved they would have been conquered by Prussia. n.b. However Poland should not have been conquered in the first place of course . . .

3. Original game rule - 11.1.3.3: If, when Poland is conquered, there are still remaining Polish forces, Poland may not be declared a minor free state by the new conquering major power. If any Polish forces remain, they remain in the control of the original controlling major power until all Polish army factors are lost or any type of peace is made between the major power that conquered Poland and the major power holding the Polish loyalty marker, at which time the former controlling-major power relinquishes control of the Polish loyalty marker. The conquering major power may then, if desired, again declare Poland a minor free state (see 11.1.1) during any later New Political Combination Step.

It would be good to get this rule into the game because it would make it more attractive to set up Poland.

2. Poland consisted only of Prussian provinces so all provinces should have become unceded Prussian home nation provinces - this occurred correctly.

My reading of the rules, though I may be wrong about this, is that if (unlike in your game) Russia had legitimately effected conquest of Poland, all the Polish provinces, originally Prussian, would have become ceded provinces under Russian control. If subsequently Prussia retook Warsaw, Masovia would revert to Prussian control, but the other Prussian ceded provinces would remain Russian until retaken separately.

If I'm correct about that, then even if the game mistakenly interpreted the situation in your game as Russia conquers Poland, then Prussia reconquers, all those Polish provinces shouldn't have returned to Prussia en masse.

ORIGINAL: ndrose

2. Poland consisted only of Prussian provinces so all provinces should have become unceded Prussian home nation provinces - this occurred correctly.

My reading of the rules, though I may be wrong about this, is that if (unlike in your game) Russia had legitimately effected conquest of Poland, all the Polish provinces, originally Prussian, would have become ceded provinces under Russian control. If subsequently Prussia retook Warsaw, Masovia would revert to Prussian control, but the other Prussian ceded provinces would remain Russian until retaken separately.

If I'm correct about that, then even if the game mistakenly interpreted the situation in your game as Russia conquers Poland, then Prussia reconquers, all those Polish provinces shouldn't have returned to Prussia en masse.

I'd agree with your first point. All the provinces would become Russian conquered and would have to be reconquered individually.

I disagree with your second point, the game has interpreted Prussia as conquering Poland *from itself* ! At no point did the game indicate that Russia had conquered Poland. Somehow it has go confused about who is occupying Warsaw and in what manner.

It sounds to me like it's not checking to see who originally  had control of Poland, just that if it's conquered the conquering MP gets control.
 
Even so, like others have said the implementation of the conquering is wrong as Poland does not go as a whole.
 
This sounds like a very serious issue and could end your game if not corrected.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

It sounds to me like it's not checking to see who originally  had control of Poland, just that if it's conquered the conquering MP gets control.

Even so, like others have said the implementation of the conquering is wrong as Poland does not go as a whole.

This sounds like a very serious issue and could end your game if not corrected.

No the actual conquest of Poland was mechanistically correct.

It's definitely won't end the game, we're too determined and have been playing for too long (Almost two years), it would taint it however.

Marshall

Save game sent to marshalle@matrixgames.com.

Do hope you can do something.

Not many people may know this, but if you free state Poland in a multiple player PBEM, you are given its 20 infantry and 8 cav in the next reinforcement phase. This does not seem to happen in the single player or hot seat games.

There's probably going to be a mad rush to free state Poland by Prussian players who read this, but does any one know if this is meant to be this way?

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

Marshall

Save game sent to marshalle@matrixgames.com.

Do hope you can do something.

Got it! Thanks! Tell me again (Without me having to look it up), what should happent o Poland if it becomes conquered?

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth
Marshall

Save game sent to marshalle@matrixgames.com.

Do hope you can do something.

Got it! Thanks! Tell me again (Without me having to look it up), what should happent o Poland if it becomes conquered?

12.8.2 - "provinces that were part of the Polish free state are considered unceded provinces, if controlled by their home nation major power, or ceded provinces, if controlled by another major power."

But in our case Poland should not be conquered at all !

So they go back to control of Prussia / Russia?

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

So they go back to control of Prussia / Russia?

The provinces (which were all originally Prussian) all reverted to Prussia when this conquest took effect, which is correct if Poland had been conquered.

Marshall - just checking you've got the right end of the stick here. There is nothing wrong with the mechanics of the conquest, the issue is that Prussia has conquered Poland when Poland was a Prussian Free State. The conquest should never have happened as Poland was already Prussian, Russia briefly occupied Warsaw which seems to have confused the game.

I'd be grateful if you could see if you can fix this as our game is stuck and the Prussian player is understandably a bit upset about losing a *lot* of Polish troops.

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

So they go back to control of Prussia / Russia?

The provinces (which were all originally Prussian) all reverted to Prussia when this conquest took effect, which is correct if Poland had been conquered.

Marshall - just checking you've got the right end of the stick here. There is nothing wrong with the mechanics of the conquest, the issue is that Prussia has conquered Poland when Poland was a Prussian Free State. The conquest should never have happened as Poland was already Prussian, Russia briefly occupied Warsaw which seems to have confused the game.

I'd be grateful if you could see if you can fix this as our game is stuck and the Prussian player is understandably a bit upset about losing a *lot* of Polish troops.

And its the longest game going as well

ORIGINAL: gazfun

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

So they go back to control of Prussia / Russia?

The provinces (which were all originally Prussian) all reverted to Prussia when this conquest took effect, which is correct if Poland had been conquered.

Marshall - just checking you've got the right end of the stick here. There is nothing wrong with the mechanics of the conquest, the issue is that Prussia has conquered Poland when Poland was a Prussian Free State. The conquest should never have happened as Poland was already Prussian, Russia briefly occupied Warsaw which seems to have confused the game.

I'd be grateful if you could see if you can fix this as our game is stuck and the Prussian player is understandably a bit upset about losing a *lot* of Polish troops.

And its the longest game going as well

Close but not quite, I think that prize goes to the Near Run Thing game that I am also hosting, started January 2008, currently at March 1812.

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

So they go back to control of Prussia / Russia?

The provinces (which were all originally Prussian) all reverted to Prussia when this conquest took effect, which is correct if Poland had been conquered.

Marshall - just checking you've got the right end of the stick here. There is nothing wrong with the mechanics of the conquest, the issue is that Prussia has conquered Poland when Poland was a Prussian Free State. The conquest should never have happened as Poland was already Prussian, Russia briefly occupied Warsaw which seems to have confused the game.

I'd be grateful if you could see if you can fix this as our game is stuck and the Prussian player is understandably a bit upset about losing a *lot* of Polish troops.

David:

Thanks! I was not on the same page! Russia should not have been able to conquer in the first place!

OK, tell me exactly what to change and I will do!
Send me an email. I have your previous email but I need instructions on what to change!

Russia never conquered Poland.
 
Prussia conquered Poland from Prussia, that's what he's saying.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

David:

Thanks! I was not on the same page! Russia should not have been able to conquer in the first place!

OK, tell me exactly what to change and I will do!
Send me an email. I have your previous email but I need instructions on what to change!

Marshall, in the game as it stands if it is allowed to run forwards Prussia will conquer Poland (which is a Prussian free state).

The game needs to be amended so that -

1. The conquest does not take place and will not take place in a future turn.

or 2. Load the French turn file I provided, allow Poland to be conquered but then reinstate it and all it's troops as a Prussian free state.

Hope that's clear.

Got it!