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Hi guys..why do my 9th Air Force medium bombers (B-25, B-26) get slaughtered on raids. I lose upwards to 50-60% of my force even when I give them solid escorts. Historically this never happened. The mediums were faster, decently armed and held their own agains the Luftwaffe. I am not talking about deep raids here either. They get nailed even on short runs.

(1)  Is this PBEM or against AI?
 
(2)  Do your raids get severely disrupted, with many straglers?
 
(3)  Do your escorts fly Close or High cover?  If the latter, how high above the bomber stream?
 
(4)  When do your escorts link up with the bombers and when do they leave the bombers?
 
(5)  Are your escorts outnumbered by enemy fighters?
 
(6)  Which type of enemy planes are shooting down your bombers?  Are the losses being inflicted by enemy 2 engined fighters, with rockets?
 
(7)  Are your loses predominantly caused by enemy planes or flak?  Are you avoiding flak traps?
 
These are just some of the relevant factors which can impact upon your situation.
 
Alfred

as said already

really , need more info, there got to be a reason why

and be easier to find out how you are using them, and then work out ways around them, then to offer ideas


but...

some of this could be timing, target depth, target type

for me, I am a big believer in decoys and baits, baits and switches

again, need some more details on what is going on

Yes, it happens to me also. But the reason is not that there is something inherently wrong with the program. The difference is that your mediums are getting intercepted at all. Historically US mediums did not have to fight their way in and out. The LW usually ignored them given they couldn't hit anything really vital and were well escorted (close, high, top, target, & return cover). There were instances where they were intercepted in force and got slaughtered just like German mediums in the BOB. The B-26s took some real beatings in December 44 at the hands of the LW. So the B-25 and B-26s "sterling" record is based more on the fact that they never had to really fight. Also true for the Pacific.

The AI however does not differentiate to high and low priority raids - it's first come, first served. [:D] Consequently our short medium bomber raids sometimes get hit hard, where historically the LW controllers would be focusing on the heavy bomber raids. And speaking for myself, I have found that escorting short raids with Spitfires is not a good thing. While they may the range to escort to the target, they really don't have the fuel to stick around. One combat and they are on their way home. This is especially damaging on the return leg when most bomber casualties occur. It is important to have fresh escorts meet the raid several times on the return leg. Just because the escort has a "green line" on the routepath which takes it to the target and home, doesn't mean they will be there when they are most needed.

A few pointers on escorting I have learned. Putting your high escorts too high only increases the chances they will not intervene. Best to layer them from 1000' above, not the default 2000'. Protect the lower escorts with layers of fighters above them. One thing not really discussed in the manual is the effect of disruption on formations, which occurs from air attack and importantly in this discussion - from flak. This is one reason why bombers often take more losses on the return leg - the formations are loose. There are often damaged planes too which sometimes separate from the raid and sometimes do not. Damaged planes are of course easier to shoot down. All of this means you need to pay special interest to the return leg escorts. Both close and high escorts are not real good at spreading out to cover the damaged bombers, so it is a good idea to fly a sweep or two over the return route. Set the sweep target short of the actual target and then place the patrol point back on the return leg to keep the sweep moving, not circling. Also not a bad idea to place a sweep with the patrol point on the coastline to circle while the returning raid passes below it, which enables the sweep to bounce the German planes content on attacking the bombers. You'll need to do some math to figure out exactly when to launch this sweep. And remember that many damaged bombers are going to be a lot lower than the raid altitude, so setting a "catch" sweep lower than the raid can be useful.

In the end, it may be better to leave the mediums on the ground and use fighter-bombers to do the work until the LW has pulled out, leaving the mediums to work over ground targets without serious opposition. In NW Europe a couple of squadrons of Typhoons will do the same or more damage than 4 groups of mediums without the losses, on all sorts of targets.

My 2 cents...

Thank you Nicholas for your observations. I appreciate them.

ORIGINAL: viasistina

Hi guys..why do my 9th Air Force medium bombers (B-25, B-26) get slaughtered on raids. I lose upwards to 50-60% of my force even when I give them solid escorts. Historically this never happened. The mediums were faster, decently armed and held their own agains the Luftwaffe. I am not talking about deep raids here either. They get nailed even on short runs.

I play one PBEM as Allied in the 43campaign - and you can ask my opponent why he is not very lucky with shooting the medium and light bombers down.

1) use staggered escorts (various delays and altitudes)
2) check the cruising speed of your bombers and your escorts and use the knowledge (do not escort Bostons/Havocs with your Mustang Is...but you may escort the British Mitchells with them)
3) check that your bombers have escorts at the right spots (above enemy territory and on the return leg)
4) avoid FlaK traps at low altitudes


and avoid the "Historically this never happened. " comment - look into history of the 9ths AF (like Jerry Scutts US Medium Bomber Units of WW2 - Northwest Europe) and look for the 23rd December 1944 - there are even combat pictures about that fight.