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Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:41 pm
by Canoerebel
Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?
1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor
2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns
3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:47 pm
by Dobey455
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?
1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor
2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns
3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain
I'm going to go with a variation of number 3. The fact that even with long range escorts the German tactical bombers were totally insufficient to use in a strategic bombing campign. i.e the lack of long range, heavily armed, strategic bombers. (Which may have also been able to be employed against the soviets later).
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:48 pm
by scott64
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?
1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor
2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns
3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain
How about #4: Hitler's stupidity. [X(]
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:52 pm
by chesmart
1. No. not that important they got armour in 1943 the problem, the real problem was there replacment/training program for pilots.
2. No Only some german tanks lacked machineguns.(They were tank destroyers)
3. Caused the most harm. Had there been german fighters with greater range the casualties the luftwaffe took would have been less.(and they needed to attack the radar stations as well)
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:55 pm
by CarnageINC
Not to be picky but these all have tactical implications not strategic.
Out of your choices I say 1, it hurt them over the long run.
2. the Germans had great combined arms doctrine so I think that the impact of the guns was not as great as 1.
3. The British would of fought on regardless and I think it would of only prolonged what resulted anyways.
I would say the biggest strategic blunder was the Luftwaffe breaking off bombing FC fields and going after the cities. They were so close to having air superiority that I think Hitler might of thought twice about attacking Britian.
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:14 pm
by Canoerebel
Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks. That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:29 pm
by Q-Ball
I don't think the MGs were even the biggest tank problem for the Germans. Their biggest problems were in tank-production, specifically they kept building obsolete types longer than they should have, built way too many variations and chassis which limited opportunities for economies of scale, and over-engineered alot of their tanks regardless.
What German AFVs didn't have MGs? I thought all of them did except the Marders.
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:31 pm
by mcissell
I know you gave us only three stratege sugestions but none of those were the answer. The German and Japanese miltary leaders either failed to learn about the American Civil War, or if they did, they competley misunderstood it. Now this may be grand-strategy and if so maybe I didn't read the question.
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:32 pm
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?
1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor
2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns
3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain
4) Declaring War on the worlds 2 greatest producers at the same time, along with the rest of the Free World. [;)]
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:37 pm
by Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks. That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.
read the quatermasters reports, they didn't get killed, and it was only one AFV that didn't have MGs on it
end of the battle, they were able to pull a number of Panzer Divs out of the lines and rush them to the Med to defend against the landings there, with out having to refit
the loss of the Panzer Divs at Kursk is a Russian Myth
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:38 pm
by Rob Brennan UK
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I don't think the MGs were even the biggest tank problem for the Germans. Their biggest problems were in tank-production, specifically they kept building obsolete types longer than they should have, built way too many variations and chassis which limited opportunities for economies of scale, and over-engineered alot of their tanks regardless.
What German AFVs didn't have MGs? I thought all of them did except the Marders.
I think CanoeRebels reffering to the Elephant/Ferdinand super tank destroyers. More akin to mobile pillboxes than tanks , they suffered from far more than being overrun by soviet tank killer squads. the entire premise was flawed .. 5 more stugs vs 1 elephant would have been a better use of resources imo.
pretty much all german tanks had good MG armament so it's not a generic problem anyway.
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:40 pm
by Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I don't think the MGs were even the biggest tank problem for the Germans. Their biggest problems were in tank-production, specifically they kept building obsolete types longer than they should have, built way too many variations and chassis which limited opportunities for economies of scale, and over-engineered alot of their tanks regardless.
What German AFVs didn't have MGs? I thought all of them did except the Marders.
the Elephant didn't carry a bow mounted MG, later model did, along with a AA mount
depends on which Marder you mean, a number of them had a bow gun, most still had a AA mount, but again, that is a Tank hunter, not a Tank
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:42 pm
by Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?
1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor
2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns
3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain
would say letting the English get away at Dunkirk was more important to any of these, if you capture those, then the bluff of SeaLion has more effect
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:47 pm
by AcePylut
2 major mistakes:
#1) Dunkirk
#2) That mistake made on June 22, 1941
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:49 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks. That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.
read the quatermasters reports, they didn't get killed, and it was only one AFV that didn't have MGs on it
end of the battle, they were able to pull a number of Panzer Divs out of the lines and rush them to the Med to defend against the landings there, with out having to refit
the loss of the Panzer Divs at Kursk is a Russian Myth
I think someone must have found an old copy of
The Tigers Are Burning [:D]
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:58 pm
by John 3rd
ORIGINAL: CarnageINC
Not to be picky but these all have tactical implications not strategic.
Out of your choices I say 1, it hurt them over the long run.
2. the Germans had great combined arms doctrine so I think that the impact of the guns was not as great as 1.
3. The British would of fought on regardless and I think it would of only prolonged what resulted anyways.
I would say the biggest strategic blunder was the Luftwaffe breaking off bombing FC fields and going after the cities. They were so close to having air superiority that I think Hitler might of thought twice about attacking Britian.
Concur. The Germans should NEVER have stopped bombing the RAF Sector AFs. They nearly ahd the RAF on the ropes. It is a great 'what if.'
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:07 pm
by JohnDillworth
How about #4: Hitler's stupidity.
If Hitler doesn't hang that right turn at Kharkov we would all be driving Volkswagens
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:09 pm
by JohnDillworth
2 major mistakes:
#1) Dunkirk
#2) That mistake made on June 22, 1941
yup, If they go in May 1941 as planned this is altogether a much closer thing
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:25 pm
by Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks. That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.
read the quatermasters reports, they didn't get killed, and it was only one AFV that didn't have MGs on it
end of the battle, they were able to pull a number of Panzer Divs out of the lines and rush them to the Med to defend against the landings there, with out having to refit
the loss of the Panzer Divs at Kursk is a Russian Myth
I think someone must have found an old copy of
The Tigers Are Burning [:D]
not read that in ages, but got much better ones lying around
GF let you open the pocket book yet ? I got a battle plan waiting just for you !
RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:30 pm
by Canoerebel
The Tigers are Burning is probably the worst work of history I've ever read (not being negative here - I've posted several times about the best history books I've read, but truly this one was the worst)