Matrix Games Forums

So my PBEM opponent and I are thinking of restarting a campaign and in the process got to discussing some mod ideas to get rid of the horrendous chore of pilot management this game offers. I personally find it to be a level of grognard micro-management that comes close to ruining an otherwise great game. Poking around in the editor and doing some tests, I thinnk I've hit upon a way to get rid of this, with a few minor house rules in place to keep it under check. In addition, I think it opens some doors to making things like TRACOM actually beneficial.

In the editor, you can go to the Scenario tab and click on the Pilots button towards the bottom of the screen. Here you can set the XP and replacement rates for all the game's pools for each year from 1941-1948. I created a little test scenario where I set the XP values at random amounts between 10-99, then loaded up a HtH game and started pulling in pilots from the Replacement Pool to fill out squadrons and observe what their XP values were.

What I found was promising. Basically, whatever the XP value that is set for the pool determines the XP value of any pilot coming in from Get Pilot -> Replacement, with about a +/- 5 variance (so if XP was set to 55 for the pool, the pilots would between 50-60 XP). Their skill settings depend on the type of plane of the squadron getting the replacement. Seems each plane type has a set of "primary" skills, these skills come in at the same value as the XP rate, again with about a +/- 5 variance, while all other skills come in at what appears to be a random value between 30-60% of the XP setting (so, if the pool has an XP rating of 50 and is pulled into a fighter squadron, whose primary skills are Air and Defn, they would have XP, Air, and Defn between 45-55, and all other skills between 15-30). The base primary skills for plane types are listed below.

F - Air, Straf, Defn
FB - Air, Straf, Defn
NF - ? Haven't tested yet
DB - NavB, NavS, GrndB, Defn
HB - GrndB, Defn
MB - GrndB, Defn
LB - GrndB, Defn
AB - ? Haven't tested yet
RC - Recn, Defn
TR - Tran, Defn
PA - NavS, Defn
FP - NavS, Defn
FF - ? Haven't tested yet
TB - NavB, NavT, NavS, GrndB, LowN, Defn

In addition, it seems primary skills also include any skills listed on the squadron info display as Major Skills. An example would be Betties and Nells, which have Major Skills of Torpedo Bombing and Low Naval Attack, when replacements are pulled into these plane types, their skills in NavT and LowN are also granted at the same level as the XP cap, despite the fact that they are MB plane types.

So, my initial thoughts on this mod were to set all the values at 55 or 60, and treat the Replacement Pool as basically the Reserve Pool, and get rid of the need for on-map training altogether. The only skill I could see needing to train up would be ASW, since no planes appear to have this as a primary or major skill. My reasoning here is that now the player is just going to plop as many replacement pilots as they can into restricted training squadrons and simply train them up to 60ish XP anyway, but spend a huge amount of time and hassle doing it. This method would abstract the pilot training process and take away the cumbersome process currently in place.

Since these would all be out-of-the-box ready pilots, the initial pools and replacement rates would need to be reduced. I'd like feedback on what others think the reduction should be, I was thinking of reducing both the initial pools and the rates by 30% across the board. Additional "untrained" pilots would be simulated by the Trainee Pool that pilots are automatically drawn from if the other pools are empty (from my testing, it appears that pilots out of the Trainee Pool typically come in around 40-60% of the XP rate of the Replacement Pool).

TRACOM would actually serve a good valid purpose here too, since putting vets into it would net you good pilots at a faster rate, whereas currently it just gives you more crap pilots you don't need.

There may need to be a few house rules to make this work, in particular, no gaming the system to get better skill pilots by doing things like pulling all your bomber pilots initially into TB squadrons then cycling them out to the General Reserve and into other bomber squadrons (since they get all the primary skills of other bombers plus the good ones of NavT and LowN).

We've also talked about some methods to make pilot reinforcement more reasonable. Request Veteran would be a fairly decent solution if it wasn't for the fact that it's horrible to try and keep up with where the pilots requested this way are (since you can't see them if the delay is >7 days) and even once they do show up, you have to go and set them to active from the pools. Instead, I was thinking of a house rule that pilots can be drawn using Get Pilot, but no individual base can draw more pilots than twice the AF size (we're playing 2-day turns). This would simulate a finite amount of pilots on-hand to quickly draw into depleted squadrons without having to micro-manage the pilot screens.

Anyway, hoping to hear some feedback here on the boards regarding this matter. I think it's a great way to get rid of the micro-management hell of pilot training, but want to make sure we get this right before we start really thinking about a restart (only get one chance to get it right!)

Hi Altaris,

I guess I (and many other forumites) don't see this as micromanagement hell. To each their own, I guess. You're certainly entitled to any HRs or work arounds that seem satisfactory to you and your partner during PBEM. Good on you for tailoring your experience to suit your preference-you can make whatever changes you see fit in the editor.

Cheers.

Wasn't trying to push a mod on anyone, just wanted to get some feedback on whether the numbers above seem reasonable. I don't have any late-game experience, so I'm a little leary of making a change that will hugely impact say, 1943 or 1944. I kinda feel the same sentiment as you on the other side of the coin... I can't imagine how anyone would not want to claw their eyes out cycling through 50 or so training squadrons and picking through pools every 10 turns or so, but if it floats your boat, more power to you!

Now what I'd really like to see is the ability to train ships up in individual combat skills instead.
Aircraft get more than enough attention as it is.[;)]

All this would require rewriting code anyway.
Maybe it'll be in WITP III.[:D]

Hi Altaris,

First, to be honest, I loathe the idea of individually training each pilot on the map in a game like WitP:AE so much that I could barely make it through your erudite and well put together post with any degree of comprehension. In my current PBEM it's April 1941 and I've done absolutely nothing with regard to the training of individual pilots so far. I'm aware it's probably long term gaming disaster, but I'd rather spend a few hours gouging my eyes out with teaspoons...

So I can offer very little in the way of specifics because I simply haven't had enough experience, but FWIW your points/methods seemed sensible to me.

However, feel free to throw me in front of what I suspect will be a bunch of posters who 'welcomed this new feature' because they already knew the game inside-out before all this training twaddle came along. I'm glad it's understandable and enjoyable for some of them. For what I guess may be the silent majority of those not versed in years of WitP nuances, it's virtually incomprehensible and seems unnecessary.

So I'm here to offer encouragement, and will periodically return to cheer you on [:)] Of course I will probably keep asking you to make it simple though [:'(]

(If only the current pilot training was made optional in the next patch... sigh...)

Good luck!

Such a scheme would heavily favour the Japanese as he would keep pulling already trained pilots from the pool which would allow him to go ferrel how would you get the histrocial effect fo too many low level pilots which were untrained because the IJAAF shipped them out quickly ?

I don't think of the new pilot training as "horrid". It seems to me much better than the alternatives used in WitP. It gives the Japanese player the opportunity to divert resources to pilot training and play "what if" they had done this in WWII. Granted it can be a bit tedious to click twice to send each pilot to General Reserve and retrieve him later. However, you do have the opportunity to see the impact of your training program in detail and this system is in keeping with the high micromanagement character of this game. Players don't have to use the pilot training system (I believe the AI does not) and can establish a house rule to ignore it. Anyway, good luck with your mod and sorry to highjack your thread, I just couldn't let your thread title go without comment.

It seems to me that a much simpler solution ( which I intend to enact ) is to simply slash pilot training numbers and raise experience. For both sides it is actually "better" to get 1/3rd of the pilots with 70 Exp instead of 40 Exp. If you need more pilots then you start getting poorly trained ones as per real life.

It would also make TRACOM useful as it is pretty pointless to accelerate lots of 40 Exp pilots a little but there is utility in increasing the rate of gradution of 70 Exp pilots. In addition by producing fewer but more immediately useful pilots the drain on Japanese HI at the beginning of every month would be reduced and more efficient.

Micromanagement of pilots is a task but if you break up the theaters into zones and work on the pilot rosters in different zones on different days it makes things much easier and not a burden at all. For my money the pilot training is fantastic as currently constructed.

Unfortunately I am not able to like pilot management, as I can´t stand the (feeled) million clicks to work with it.

Again, for anyone who enjoys the pilot management feature, this isn't meant as a knock against you. There's just a lot of us that don't care for it, but the problem is, right now it's essential if you want your pilots to actually be able to do anything at all. I figure on a good week I spend at least 3-4 hours just managing pilots in on-map training... that's too much time, time I'd much rather have for playing the game itself. So primarily I'm looking ot make something that removes the essential need of the on-map training for those of us that don't find it fun or interesting.

Pant, pant...drool, drool...
 
The thought of no pilot training is spring water to a man wandering through a harsh and inhospitable desert.  I admit I can't follow your thoughts entirely, Altaris, but I applaud you for delving into the matter.  Go, boy, go!
 
Somebody, please create an AE that doesn't involved pilot training!  Get rid of the abomination that turns a strategic masterpiece into a horrid micromanagement hades.  Anybody that creates such a beasty will be a hero, a saviour, a White Fang bringing the medicine to the lonely outpost stricken by disease.
 
[:D]
 
P.S.  Nothing against you crazy and misguided hordes that somehow enjoy pilot training in a strategic game.

I enjoy the current pilot training method, but I also have felt frustration at the lenght of time needed to train pilots and I believe the current Exp levels of new pilots are too low.
From the editor manual, page 51:
 "Note that a rating of 50-60 is a thoroughly trained pilot with many months of flight time, but no combat experience. A rating of 25-30 is a hastily trained pilot."
Starting base experience of replacement pilots (Scenario 01):
IJN Army 1941- 35  1942-35  1943-35  1944-35  1945-35  1946-35
IJN Navy 1941-35  1942-35  1943-35  1944-35  1944-35  1946-35
US Navy 1941-40  1942-40  1943-40  1944-40  1945-50  1946-55
US Army 1941-30  1942-30  1943-30  1944-35  1944-40 1945-45
US Marines 1941-35  1942-35  1943-35  1944-35  1945-45  1946-50
British 1941-35  1942-35  1943-35  1944-35  1945-45  1946-50
 
So even after a full year in the off-map training program, until 1945, US Army pilots are only hastily trained? And US Navy, US Marines, and British pilots are barely better than hastily trained? 
I am not a pilot, but does it really take a full year just to teach someone how to take off and land?
 
I believe the starting average Exp for pilots in the replacement pool should be 50; that way a player can either send the pilot right to combat, or to a dedicated training squadron to improve the pilot's skills. This starting number should decrease for Japan in 1944/1945/1946, and increase for Allies in 1944/1945/1946. I believe that a higher starting number of 55-60 might unbalance the game too much, by favoring the air war over the naval and land aspects.

ORIGINAL: ckammp


So even after a full year in the off-map training program, until 1945, US Army pilots are only hastily trained? And US Navy, US Marines, and British pilots are barely better than hastily trained? 
I am not a pilot, but does it really take a full year just to teach someone how to take off and land?

This may give you some insight, what was involved when training combat pilot:

http://www.talkingproud.us/HistoryWWWIIFtrPilot.html

Quote:

He graduated from high school at the age of 18, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor when he was 19, he joined the aviation cadet program and the Army just after turning 20, and now he's nearly a 22 year old-plus fighter pilot ready to go to work and bring death to the Japanese.

So after 12 months training, pilot is not really ready for combat yet. So yes, full year in training program really was only hastily trained.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


P.S.  Nothing against you crazy and misguided hordes that somehow enjoy pilot training in a strategic game.

Canoerebel,

As one of these crazy and misguided hordes, I like the control this pilot training system gives me in a particular game. I can vary the resources I wish to devote to training. I can see in depth the skills of individual pilots I wish to develop. I can move pilots with particular skill sets to units with a tactical need for those skills. It does require effort on the part of the player to accomplish this. I understand why some players prefer not to have to make that effort. This mod could be an alternative for those players. I prefer not to give up control of my training effort to a modder.

I can deal with the pilot training fine, but I wish they had give the USN, USMC and USA a few training units on the West Coast.

This training, along with a the suggestions of ship and LCU targeted training, should have all been part of an 'optional' set of buttons. Then we wouldn't be in the debate 'I like it' vs. 'I don't like it'....

Halsey,

I like the idea of a different training mechanism for American ship experience too, though I do wonder what it would be. A single naval combat typically takes surviving ships into the high 50's. That combined with putting your very best naval commanders in combat task forces seems to be OK. Nonetheless, I do bemoan the first few combats,as they typcially are of bad result (all other things equal)

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pant, pant...drool, drool...

The thought of no pilot training is spring water to a man wandering through a harsh and inhospitable desert.  I admit I can't follow your thoughts entirely, Altaris, but I applaud you for delving into the matter.  Go, boy, go!

Somebody, please create an AE that doesn't involved pilot training!  Get rid of the abomination that turns a strategic masterpiece into a horrid micromanagement hades.  Anybody that creates such a beasty will be a hero, a saviour, a White Fang bringing the medicine to the lonely outpost stricken by disease.

[:D]

P.S.  Nothing against you crazy and misguided hordes that somehow enjoy pilot training in a strategic game.

Of course not. Nothing against you misguided crazies that believe that pilot training shouldn't have a very important part of a strategic game.[:D]

Mod away to your heart's content, Canoerebel. I've got the game I want right now.

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Halsey,

I like the idea of a different training mechanism for American ship experience too, though I do wonder what it would be. A single naval combat typically takes surviving ships into the high 50's. That combined with putting your very best naval commanders in combat task forces seems to be OK. Nonetheless, I do bemoan the first few combats,as they typcially are of bad result (all other things equal)

This could be taken to the level of detail that individual pilots get in the game.[:D]

Alas, it's not to be.
It's beyond the code that's already in place.
We'll all have to wait for the next installment of the Pacific War.[;)]