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Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:50 am
by lancer
Goodaye,
I was wondering how much actual astronomical knowledge is incorporated into the game.
Reason I ask is that Red Dwarf stars make up roughly 70% - 90% of all stars in the galaxy and from looking at the screenshots of the strategic views they appear to be in the distinct minority to the much larger number, and much less common in reality, of yellow, G2 (Sun-like) stars.
I'm assuming this is done to provide a higher incidence of habital planets than would exist given current knowledge. As there doesn't appear to be any setting in the 'New Game' options for tweaking the prevelance of habital planets I figure that this is hard-coded for game play reasons.
No big deal either way, just curious.
Cheers,
Lancer
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:55 am
by Wade1000
tm.asp?m=2353930&mpage=1&key=abstractions? (from
'Stellar evolution? Future possibility?' thread)
ORIGINAL: Wade1000
Consider, also, that a galaxy consists of billions of stars. In games like this portraying a galaxy each star system represented is likely abstracted to represent an average ,or the best, of millions of stars in it's vicinity.
Abstractions. There are not biliions of stars on the game map like in a real galaxy. Each game star is abstracted to represent (maybe the average of, or best of) tens of millions of stars, maybe representing up to around 100 million stars each in game.
These sorts of games are abundant in ABSTRACTIONS. You should also accept that each planetary structure built represents not one but many on the planet. Maybe also that each ship represents many, depending on the flow of time and the time it takes to build one...unless you want to imagine each ship as super massive, tens of kilometers(miles) to hundreds of kilometers(miles) long. That is how I imagine them. That's how some science fiction does also.
Abstractions...like in a Civilization 4 game a soldier unit might equal 1000 people, a tank or plane unit might equal 100, a water ship unit might equal 10...or 1, depending on the game flow of time and how long it takes to build one.
Abstractions.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:53 am
by Gargantou
To be honest, if this was abstraction, wouldn't that still logically mean that the majority of stars in the game were Red Dwarfs?
Personally I reckon you're right lancer, a conscious design decision to increase the amount of habitable systems/planets.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:05 am
by Wade1000
Each game star is abstracted to represent (maybe the average of, or best of)...
"best of..."
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:01 am
by Wade1000
It seems that many proffesional theories, estimates, and claims support some forms of habitable planets of red dwarf star systems. It's all still largely unknown.
Space strategy games are best when they try to balance abstracted realism with gameplay fun.
Also, high technology habitats and terraforming could allow habitation on and around planets of red dwarf star systems.
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dwarf
Habitability
Main article:
Habitability of red dwarf systems[/align]

[/align]An artist's impression of a planet in orbit around a red dwarf.[/align][/align][/align]
Planetary habitability of red dwarf star systems is subject to some debate.[
citation needed] In spite of their great numbers and long lifespans, there are several factors which may make life difficult on planets around a red dwarf star. First, planets in the habitable zone of a red dwarf would be so close to the parent star that they would likely be
tidally locked. This would mean that one side would be in perpetual daylight and the other in eternal night. This could create enormous temperature variations from one side of the planet to the other. Such conditions would appear to make it difficult for forms of life similar to those on Earth to evolve.[
citation needed]
And it appears a great problem with the atmosphere of such tidally locked planets : the perpetual night zone would be cold enough to freeze the main gases of its atmosphere, leaving the daylight zone nude and dry.
On the other hand, recent theories propose that either a thick atmosphere or planetary ocean could potentially circulate heat around such a planet, or life could survive by migration.[
citation needed] Alternatively, a moon in orbit around a gas giant planet may be habitable. It would circumvent the tidal lock problem by become tidally locked to its planet. This way there would be a "day"/night cycle as the moon orbited its primary, and there would be distribution of heat.
In addition, red dwarfs emit most of their radiation as
infrared light, while on Earth plants use energy mostly in the visible spectrum. Red dwarfs emit almost no
ultraviolet light, which would be a problem if UV is required for life to exist. Variability in stellar energy output may also have negative impacts on development of life. Red dwarfs are often covered by
starspots, reducing stellar output by as much as 40% for months at a time. At other times, some red dwarfs, called
flare stars, can emit gigantic flares, doubling their brightness in minutes. This variability may also make it difficult for life to develop and persist near a red dwarf star. Gibor Basri of the
University of California, Berkeley claims a planet orbiting close to a red dwarf star could keep its atmosphere even if the star flares.
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitabili ... rf_systems
Abundance
There is, however, one major advantage that red dwarfs have over other stars as abodes for life: they live a long time. It took 4.5 billion years before humanity appeared on Earth, and life as we know it will see suitable conditions for as little as half a billion years more.[9] Red dwarfs, by contrast, could live for trillions of years, because their nuclear reactions are far slower than those of larger stars, meaning that life both would have longer to evolve and longer to survive. Further, while the odds of finding a planet in the habitable zone around any specific red dwarf are slim, the total amount of habitable zone around all red dwarfs combined is equal to the total amount around sun-like stars given their ubiquity.[10] The first possibly rocky extrasolar planet with the mass of a Super-Earth that was found at the "warm" edge of the habitable zone of its star is Gliese 581 c, and its star, Gliese 581, is indeed a red dwarf.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:19 am
by Tycow
Wade, a link to wikipedia will suffice mate. It's getting hard to actually find your actual intended comment amongst the quotes, wikipedia articles and pictures you insist on adding to most of your posts.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:38 am
by Sarissofoi
I agree with Tycow.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:39 am
by Wade1000
My comments are usually at the top, above any photos or quote boxes. The quotes are often a large part of what I want to express. Also, A wikipedia page link especially(or other), often will have much of its page with material not immediately relevant to what I want to express. Thus, I will link the page and quote box a section of that page.
Aside from short chat like posts, I also like to some times use forums for expressing ideas and information and see what others have to offer. Just wanted to say that in case my large posts were surprising some people. I enjoy most of the posts of other people and I hope that my posts are enjoyed.

RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am
by Tycow
ORIGINAL: Wade1000
My comments are usually at the top, above any photos or quote boxes. The quotes are often a large part of what I want to express. Also, A wikipedia page link especially(or other), often will have much of its page with material not immediately relevant to what I want to express. Thus, I will link the page and quote box a section of that page.
Aside from short chat like posts, I also like to some times use forums for expressing ideas and information and see what others have to offer. Just wanted to say that in case my large posts were surprising some people. I enjoy most of the posts of other people and I hope that my posts are enjoyed.
Sorry Wade, my post came across overly harsh. I can see why you do it (as I was about to copy a picture into the thread too) but the forum was becoming Wikipedia-lite by your hand. [;)]
Your posts are enjoyed (apart from the ones asking for DW to be delayed [;)]) but rather than quoting things from other threads, a link to the individual post would make things far easier to read (or it would in my case anyway)!
Anyway, back on with the discussion!
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:58 am
by Tycow
I find the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram a fascinating beast to look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HRDiagram.png
Going by that diagram, red dwarf stars appear between the K and M spectra type in the Main Sequence band. Given their abundance on the diagram, and the fact they live for a lot longer than other stars, they look like the ideal star to orbit. Unforunately, because they do not put out as much energy as other stars, the downside is that the planet would have to orbit much, much closer than 1 AU to sustain our version of life viably.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:48 am
by elliotg
ORIGINAL: lancer
I was wondering how much actual astronomical knowledge is incorporated into the game.
Reason I ask is that Red Dwarf stars make up roughly 70% - 90% of all stars in the galaxy and from looking at the screenshots of the strategic views they appear to be in the distinct minority to the much larger number, and much less common in reality, of yellow, G2 (Sun-like) stars.
I'm assuming this is done to provide a higher incidence of habital planets than would exist given current knowledge. As there doesn't appear to be any setting in the 'New Game' options for tweaking the prevelance of habital planets I figure that this is hard-coded for game play reasons.
We've tried to have a cross-section of interesting star types in the game, but as you noticed, it's not really representative of star distribution in the real galaxy.
In the game, yellow stars more often have habitable planets. Red giant stars also have planets fairly often. But white dwarf and neutron stars hardly ever have planets. The mix/balance of star types has been fine-tuned to provide a fun, playable galaxy for each game.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:53 am
by Baleur
Well, there are plenty of known galaxies so far with a majority of yellow / medium-to-large sized stars. Almost exclusively small dwarf galaxies orbiting other galaxies, but still.
Considering the size of the galaxies ingame (hundreds of stars), i'd say its more representative of a dwarf galaxy than our milky way, hence the low number of red dwarfs is a bit more realistic in that aspect.
^_^
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:06 am
by Gargantou
I'm glad that the team chose to prioritize making the star systems more balanced over accurately representing our galaxy.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:29 pm
by Mad Russian
For me it's a game first. Then a learning tool. I'm sure that those that want to can make the galaxy as realistic as they want and we'll see lots of different types of galaxies in the coming months and years.
Once I get comfortable with the game I intend on not only teaching the Grandkids how to play but how to use the editor to change things around to their way of thinking....
After that I'll be looking for some modders to show them how to make their own ships, etc.....maybe even start a group like I did for tactical wargames. Who knows. It appears that DW will offer endless opportunities. This game very much is opportunistic for me. It's the apparently the right game arriving at just the right time.
No sense in letting their formative years go by unformed.....[8D]
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:15 pm
by Gargantou
Naturally it's a game first for me too, if I want more 'hardcore' stuff I go play Aurora.
I'm still interested in seeing how much 'under-the-hood' modding that one can do, i.e. not simple modification of racial attributes or editing of the systems etc.
Personally my favourite games these days are those that rely largely on for example XML files, since they're usually extremely mod-friendly and a single individual with as simple a program as Notepad can do so much to alter the underlying game mechanics and workings.
RE: Astronomical Influences
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 pm
by Mad Russian
I mean this isn't my favorite area of history. I really only started looking into it because I made a card game for my Grandkids about space. Plus, like all of you, I've been on space ships before...mostly with the old Star Trek board game style of ship combat and space exploration games.
So, for me this is just a game. Not something I will probably every get too involved in. I'll have to play the game well enough to be competitive against the Grandkids but after a couple of games where they learn what they need to know I can just turn them loose in space.
Then I'll play the game for fun.
Good Hunting.
MR