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Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:50 am
by Greyshaft
November/December 1939
Pierre deBauch poured out the dregs of the bottle into his friends glass.
“I cannot believe how, even after crushing Poland by the end of October for the loss of only two divisions, the Bosch have not yet attacked Holland”
“Oui,” replied Paul LaGrosse suppressing a belch. “But remember the British had their fleet with loaded transports sitting in the North Sea all of last month. That scared all of the little Adolfs away and they didn't even invade Denmark until last Monday.”
“October was very wet,” recalled Pierre. “But the British were busy in India and you would think...”
“Non! Non!” interrupted Paul. “The Japanese didn't invade India until November. Remember the look on Winston's face yesterday when he received the Japanese declaration of war and heard that the Imperial Guard had landed in Coconda. You would think that seeing the Japanese fleet sailing in the Indian Ocean for two turns in a row would have warned those rosbifs that something was happening.”
“Maybe,” temporised Pierre. “I know the British examined that enemy fleet carefully in September but not in November...”
“... and so they didn't notice the transports loaded with Imperial Marines ...”
“... which walked into the east Indian port and declared the liberation of India,” concluded Pierre.
“Who can understand the British?” asked Paul.

********************************************
January/February 1940
URGENT...URGENT...URGENT... IJN COMMUNICATION... TO ALL UNITS
CHINESE 13TH RESERVE ARMY APPROACHING RAPIDLY AND ALL IMPERIAL ARMY TROOPS ARE CURRENTLY DEPLOYED IN OTHER LOCATIONS. FALL OF CANTON IMMINENT. ALL IJN UNITS BASED IN CANTON TO IMMEDIATELY REBASE IN TOKYO. CARRIERS KAGA, AKAGI,SORYU ETC ETC...OMG THE WHOLE FLIPPING IMPERIAL FLEET HAS BEEN REBASED AND FLIPPED AND IS USELESS FOR THE REST OF THE TURN AND THIS IS ONLY THE FIRST IMPULSE OF THE TURN!
IJNHQ

URGENT...URGENT...URGENT... IJN COMMUNICATION... TO IJNHQ
BRITISH CARRIER FLEET OBSERVED APPROACHING COCONDA. INCOMING CARRIER PLANES ATTACKING IJN TRANSPORTS IN PORT. ONE SUNK AND ONE ABORTED. OUR OFFENSIVE WITH THREE CORPS AGAINST WAVELLS FOUR MILITIA/GARRISON IN CENTRAL INDIA IS STALLED. EXPLAIN SOONEST DIVERSION OF MY THREE CORPS OF REINFORCEMENTS TO TSING-TAO. BRITISH REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVING IN INDIA EVERY TURN. ADDITIONAL TROOPS NEEDED HERE SOONEST.
ADM YAMAMATO

URGENT...URGENT...URGENT... IJN COMMUNICATION ...TO ADM YAMAMATO
BRITISH SUBMARINES OPERATING IN SEA OF JAPAN SINK TWO IMPERIAL CONVOYS. SIAMESE GOVT DEPLOYS ARMY TOO FAR NORTH AND IS UNABLE TO OCCUPY RANGOON. BRITISH MILITIA APPEAR IN RANGOON AND BURMA NOT YET PACIFIED. DETACH TROOPS SOONEST TO OCCUPY CALCUTTA AND RANGOON. SINGAPORE TAKEN BY IMPERIAL TROOPS. BRITISH SUBMARINES OPERATING OUT OF CALCUTTA AND BRITISH CARRIERS OPERATING OUT OF ADEN. TWO IJN SUBMARINES ASSIGNED TO PATROL ARABIAN SEA.
IJNHQ

********************************************
May/June 1940

“But Mein Fuhrer, whined Benito. “The allied Navy is so strong and we are so unready.”
“Dumkopf,” snarled Adolf. “Der British have sent most of their fleet to India to face the Japanese. This is our best chance to take the Suez Canal and link up with the Asiatics. You have most of your army at Bardia. Strike now!”
“But the French might...”
“Der Frogs are worse than dumkopfs! They sent all of their light ships to French Equatorial Africa, New Caledonia and other asian ports. They dare not face you.”
“They have seven battleships in Marseille.”
“And I have seven Panzer Corps in Holland with another seventy about to strike through Belgium.”
Benito didn't dare to correct der Fuhrer's obvious deficiency in mathematics.
“But the British... “ he whined.”
“Listen to me Benito,” hissed Adolf urgently. “The British have landed their army in western Holland and committed themselves too far to the north. Even as we speak our Panzers are slicing into Belgium. There is brilliant sunshine all through Europe and nothing can stop my Luftwaffe.”
“Well maybe I could...”
“Hit his convoys now!” urged Adolf. “Der Japanese have already sunk two of his transports and I have found that Winston has left Malta ungarissoned.”
“Malta is ungarissoned?” said Benito in a slightly braver voice.
“Ungarissoned!” repeated Adolf.
The two dictators looked at each other.
“Who can understand the British?” asked Benito.

********************************************
May/June 1940
The IJN Soryu rode easily over the swells as it bravely ran away. Meeting three Commonwealth carriers hadn't been part of Admiral Yakamaka's plan when he ordered his fleet into the Arabian sea. Now the IJN Hiryu was at the bottom of the sea and his plans for a port strike on Aden were permanently postponed.
“Perhaps the enemy carrier was also sunk?” ventured his Flag Captain. “Our pilots report two bomb hits on her flight deck.”
“They also positively identified her as the Ark Royal,” pointed out Yakamaka. If they had hit either of the other British carriers then I would agree, but I fear that after four months in drydock we will meet that ship again.... and we have lost a carrier permanently.”
“Our navy is still the strongest in the Pacific.”
“Perhaps,” said Yakamaka. “But we have no carriers under construction and the enemy port strike on Coconda sunk our transport fleet.”
Admiral Yakamaka was aware that as the Admiral commanding a failed attack he had a personal appointment with the short stabbing sword that was hanging in his cabin. After the fleet was safely returned to Bangkok he would keep that appointment and thereby permanently deprive the Empire of his own undoubted genius.
“Stupid British,” he thought to himself.

********************************************
May/June 1940
Merde!
Pierre leaned against the 47mm barrel of his anti-tank gun and stared around at the battered ruins of Brussels. The heaped carcasses of two five point French infantry units lay dead in the dust around him but his own anti-tank unit had lived to fight another day. Out in the suburbs of the Belgium capital the German attackers cleared away their casualties and reorganised their air force. Pierre doubted that the Boche could mount another attack on Brussels before July and, even if they did, the two French six point infantry units now moving into the Brussels defences would make it a tough fight. Pierre and his guns shouldn't have been there of course. The original agreement with Perfidious Albion had specified that the British would defend Brussels if the Germans invaded but in January the British had muttered something about 'Coconda' and removed half of their Expeditionary Force from the sacred soil of France. Now the French army needed to hold the line from Brussels to the Swiss border while the rosbifs clung to their two hex enclave straddling the Holland-Belgium border. If only the rosbifs would take over the defence of Brussels then Pierre knew his unit would be redeployed to Marseilles to lead the charge across the Alpes and into the Po valley. It wouldn't happen this year and unless a miracle happened it wouldn't even happen in 1941. The only interesting news was the announcement of France's declaration of war on Italy and the sailing of seven French battleships to meet the four battleships and five cruisers that the Italians had left in the western Mediterranean after they had sent seven cruisers into the eastern Mediterranean to support General Balbos attack on Egypt. The French and the Italian fleets had missed each other in the fog and Balbo had occupied Cairo and Alexandria. Things were looking bad for Egypt.

********************************************
July/August 1940
“A double victory my friend.”
Benito was in a good mood. His navy had sunk the French battleship 'Strasbourg' in the Eastern Mediterranean on the same impulse that the Germans had forced their way into the Maginot line and taken the French city of Strasbourg.
“Hmmmm.”
Adolf was certainly quiet today.
“We are only one hex from the Suez Canal.” continued Benito. “The Japanese are patrolling the Arabian sea and the Americans still say nothing.”
“Hmmmm.”
Benito set down his glass. Der Fuhrer was certainly in a bad mood.
“We need to talk about Gibraltar,” he said. “And maybe Greece.”
“Forget Gibraltar!” snarled Adolph. “I need to conquer France! September is coming and my Panzers are stopped on the border. Brussels still holds out and the French air force is growing every turn.”
********************************************




The serious stuff
A fairly standard set of German opening conquered Poland and Denmark then redeployed westward for a MA40 DOW on Holland and Belgium. The opportunistic Italians DOWd Britain in MA40, occupied an undefended Malta then pushed rapidly on Suez, fought their way into Cairo and sat facing the British rearguard one hex west of the Suez Canal. The French Army occupied and successfully defended Brussels, forcing the Panzers to slide south and attempt repeated assaults on the Maginot Line. Strasbourg fell in JA40 and Metz in SO40.

During the meanwhilst, the ND39 DOW by Japan on the Commonwealth certainly caught the allies by surprise but the invasion of India bogged down when Britain systematically stripped the Middle East to land forces to reinforce the Pacific. Japan was forced temporarily onto the defensive when the Chinese 13th Reserve Army marched into an ungarissoned Canton on the first impulse of JF40 and forced the entire Japanese fleet to flip, rebase and then sit out the rest of the turn in Tokyo. British subs based in Calcutta ravaged Japanese convoys and British carriers from Aden launched a Port strike on the Japanese bridgehead at Cocona sinking a much needed transport. German, Italian and Japanese subs returned the favour causing a tactical retreat of the British Merchant Marine from Asia. Germany claimed Lithuania in MJ40 and Latvia in JA40, prompting Russia to revoke the Pact, invade Persia then claim Bessabarabia in SO40.

After a year of war Japan had conquered NEI and Borneo but the front lines in China and India had stagnated and there was much speculation in the Allied camp about where Japan would find the troops to face the rapidly approaching American DOW. In Europe the Germans were grinding through the Maginot Line and it seemed doubtful that Paris would fall before the Americans (and the Russians) declared war on Germany. ND40 and JF41 passed with the Germans enlarging their Metz/Strasbourg bridgehead by only one hex per turn and the Japanese occupying an ungarrisoned Ceylon and edging around the southern end of the British line in India to occupy Calacut.

By MA41 the Japanese had exhausted the British fleet and were regularly patrolling the Arabian Sea which placed the British remnant in Egypt out of supply and allowed General Balbo's Italian legions to conquer Suez and look forward to linking up with the Japanese. At this point the Axis were on the cusp of victory – France's Army was still substantial but without the Maginot Line to anchor the defence the future held only a fighting retreat to Paris and inevitable Vichification. The British force in Brussels had German units on three hexsides and the future retreat of France meant that they needed to prepare escape routes via French ports. The Russians had redeployed the bulk of their army to face the Rumanians and the writing was on the wall for the Balkans.

MJ41 saws the destruction of the final British troops in Suez leaving a wing of Spitfire II's rebasing themselves into oblivion in the Syrian desert. Across the border in recently-conquered Iraq the Russians gazed impassively at the final destruction of the capitalists. Over in the Indian ocean the Japanese debarked in Italian Samaliland and began the long march south to Pretoria. No British troops stood in their way. Only Aden held out against the Axis pincers.


**************************************************************

At this point my three day leave pass expired and I packed up wife and kids and went home (naturally I played France). I'm betting on an Allied victory but we won't know for another week until the WiFCon finishes. Even if the Axis win the game there will be a nominal protest because EVERYONE forgot to ask Germany to take US Entry chits out for the Russo-German border during 1940, and therefore the additional entry chits picked by the US because of the early Japanese DOW on England were badly diluted (lots of 1939/40 zeros and ones which should have been picked from the pool before the 1941 chits were added). Too late to fix it up now but it certainly delayed the US Production Ramp up and set war entry back into a historic timetable.

It was great to get my hands dirty with the counters again and the event cleared out some of the ghosts of Wif 5 that had been confusing my playtesting.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:34 am
by micheljq
That was very interesting to read. [;)]

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:35 pm
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

At this point my three day leave pass expired and I packed up wife and kids and went home (naturally I played France). I'm betting on an Allied victory but we won't know for another week until the WiFCon finishes. Even if the Axis win the game there will be a nominal protest because EVERYONE forgot to ask Germany to take US Entry chits out for the Russo-German border during 1940, and therefore the additional entry chits picked by the US because of the early Japanese DOW on England were badly diluted (lots of 1939/40 zeros and ones which should have been picked from the pool before the 1941 chits were added). Too late to fix it up now but it certainly delayed the US Production Ramp up and set war entry back into a historic timetable.

It was great to get my hands dirty with the counters again and the event cleared out some of the ghosts of Wif 5 that had been confusing my playtesting.
It is completely legal for Germany to choose not to draw her pact chits. Under 13.2 Entry Markers - RAW reads: "In this step, major powers with neutrality pacts can pick an entry marker..." Note there is no "must pick". And of course once the pact was revoked, no more markers would be drawn in any case. Maybe Russia whould have waited to revoke the pact?

Hmmm, I wonder if MWiF programming allows for a power to decline picking a pact chit?

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:10 pm
by macgregor
Thank you Greyshaft. I enjoyed that. I enjoy any talk about this game. Any chance of showing some pictures?

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:07 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

At this point my three day leave pass expired and I packed up wife and kids and went home (naturally I played France). I'm betting on an Allied victory but we won't know for another week until the WiFCon finishes. Even if the Axis win the game there will be a nominal protest because EVERYONE forgot to ask Germany to take US Entry chits out for the Russo-German border during 1940, and therefore the additional entry chits picked by the US because of the early Japanese DOW on England were badly diluted (lots of 1939/40 zeros and ones which should have been picked from the pool before the 1941 chits were added). Too late to fix it up now but it certainly delayed the US Production Ramp up and set war entry back into a historic timetable.

It was great to get my hands dirty with the counters again and the event cleared out some of the ghosts of Wif 5 that had been confusing my playtesting.
It is completely legal for Germany to choose not to draw her pact chits. Under 13.2 Entry Markers - RAW reads: "In this step, major powers with neutrality pacts can pick an entry marker..." Note there is no "must pick". And of course once the pact was revoked, no more markers would be drawn in any case. Maybe Russia whould have waited to revoke the pact?

Hmmm, I wonder if MWiF programming allows for a power to decline picking a pact chit?
MWIF does not. But the point is moot since the drawing of chits for pacts has no effect of US Entry (in MWIF).

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:07 am
by Manack
Thank you Greyshaft.  I wish I was able to attend.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:16 am
by Greyshaft
The problem (as I understand it) was not that German chits would have affected the USA entry per se, but rather that by taking chits every turn in 1940  the german player would have been taking out the old low level chits (zeros and ones) from the pool and when the 1941 chits were added the USA player would have had a better chance to draw high level chits during subsequent 1941 turns.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:41 am
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

At this point my three day leave pass expired and I packed up wife and kids and went home (naturally I played France). I'm betting on an Allied victory but we won't know for another week until the WiFCon finishes. Even if the Axis win the game there will be a nominal protest because EVERYONE forgot to ask Germany to take US Entry chits out for the Russo-German border during 1940, and therefore the additional entry chits picked by the US because of the early Japanese DOW on England were badly diluted (lots of 1939/40 zeros and ones which should have been picked from the pool before the 1941 chits were added). Too late to fix it up now but it certainly delayed the US Production Ramp up and set war entry back into a historic timetable.

It was great to get my hands dirty with the counters again and the event cleared out some of the ghosts of Wif 5 that had been confusing my playtesting.
It is completely legal for Germany to choose not to draw her pact chits. Under 13.2 Entry Markers - RAW reads: "In this step, major powers with neutrality pacts can pick an entry marker..." Note there is no "must pick". And of course once the pact was revoked, no more markers would be drawn in any case. Maybe Russia whould have waited to revoke the pact?

Hmmm, I wonder if MWiF programming allows for a power to decline picking a pact chit?
MWIF does not. But the point is moot since the drawing of chits for pacts has no effect of US Entry (in MWIF).
hah-hah. If anyone should have known that, it was me!

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:04 am
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

The problem (as I understand it) was not that German chits would have affected the USA entry per se, but rather that by taking chits every turn in 1940  the german player would have been taking out the old low level chits (zeros and ones) from the pool and when the 1941 chits were added the USA player would have had a better chance to draw high level chits during subsequent 1941 turns.
As Paul alluded to, he and Nils developed the probabilty distributions for drawing chits. The US Entry chits (and other chits) are drawn against an infinite pool in MWIF.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:37 pm
by Ullern

Fun report.
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Germany claimed Lithuania in MJ40 and Latvia in JA40, prompting Russia to revoke the Pact, invade Persia then claim Bessabarabia in SO40.

About that. Can the USSR claim Bessarabia after the Pact has been revoked? I would not have allowed it unless a reading of the appropriate chapter would prove me wrong.


RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:39 pm
by brian brian
ORIGINAL: ullern


Fun report.
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Germany claimed Lithuania in MJ40 and Latvia in JA40, prompting Russia to revoke the Pact, invade Persia then claim Bessabarabia in SO40.

About that. Can the USSR claim Bessarabia after the Pact has been revoked? I would not have allowed it unless a reading of the appropriate chapter would prove me wrong.


yes, nice game journalism there, thanks!

some of the non-traditional German & USSR play was something I wanted to theoretically explore too. USSR doesn't claim Baltic ... Germany DOWs the first one ... what next

not to mention word on how this game turned out would be interesting. this site needs some new play-by-play, actual or theoretical, to babble about

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 am
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: ullern


Fun report.
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Germany claimed Lithuania in MJ40 and Latvia in JA40, prompting Russia to revoke the Pact, invade Persia then claim Bessabarabia in SO40.

About that. Can the USSR claim Bessarabia after the Pact has been revoked? I would not have allowed it unless a reading of the appropriate chapter would prove me wrong.

IMHO - Yes! My rationale is that 19.5 in the rules is the N-S Pact, but 19.6 is Soviet Border Rectification. So as long as Rumania is still neutral....

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:57 pm
by Ullern
ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: ullern


Fun report.
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Germany claimed Lithuania in MJ40 and Latvia in JA40, prompting Russia to revoke the Pact, invade Persia then claim Bessabarabia in SO40.

About that. Can the USSR claim Bessarabia after the Pact has been revoked? I would not have allowed it unless a reading of the appropriate chapter would prove me wrong.

IMHO - Yes! My rationale is that 19.5 in the rules is the N-S Pact, but 19.6 is Soviet Border Rectification. So as long as Rumania is still neutral....

I see your answer. And now I've read the rules. The rules doesn't say anything really about this situation with no pact but no war either. The way I read 19.6 it deals with how the different countries behave pre-war which really was a consequence of the pact, and secondly the 19.6 tells how, and when the different countries Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary and Rumania may be aligned.

The part about aligning must be a valid rule throughout the game for obvious reasons.

But the part about the claiming of the borderlands should be invalidated at some event like the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I grant you that the way the 19.6 is written now there is no limit on when the claiming borderlands can be done. That means that as a rule lawyer someone could say that even after Germany and USSR is at war, the USSR must still claim the borderlands of Finland or Rumania before they can later declare war on those countries.

I find this quite absurd. I don't see why the USSR would accept a political move by Germany to negotiate a mall land grant from a minor country after the USSR is at war with Germany, when the USSR intention to include Finland or Rumania in the war is likely a move just to hurt Germany somehow. (And it would be quite absurd if Germany accepted a USSR claim when Germany and the USSR is at war.)

My conclusion is that there must be a limit on when borderlands can be claimed. Even though the rule doesn't say what the limit is. There are two logical choices: When the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I'll vote for the former.


RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:22 pm
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: ullern

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: ullern


Fun report.



About that. Can the USSR claim Bessarabia after the Pact has been revoked? I would not have allowed it unless a reading of the appropriate chapter would prove me wrong.

IMHO - Yes! My rationale is that 19.5 in the rules is the N-S Pact, but 19.6 is Soviet Border Rectification. So as long as Rumania is still neutral....

I see your answer. And now I've read the rules. The rules doesn't say anything really about this situation with no pact but no war either. The way I read 19.6 it deals with how the different countries behave pre-war which really was a consequence of the pact, and secondly the 19.6 tells how, and when the different countries Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary and Rumania may be aligned.

The part about aligning must be a valid rule throughout the game for obvious reasons.

But the part about the claiming of the borderlands should be invalidated at some event like the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I grant you that the way the 19.6 is written now there is no limit on when the claiming borderlands can be done. That means that as a rule lawyer someone could say that even after Germany and USSR is at war, the USSR must still claim the borderlands of Finland or Rumania before they can later declare war on those countries.

I find this quite absurd. I don't see why the USSR would accept a political move by Germany to negotiate a mall land grant from a minor country after the USSR is at war with Germany, when the USSR intention to include Finland or Rumania in the war is likely a move just to hurt Germany somehow. (And it would be quite absurd if Germany accepted a USSR claim when Germany and the USSR is at war.)

My conclusion is that there must be a limit on when borderlands can be claimed. Even though the rule doesn't say what the limit is. There are two logical choices: When the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I'll vote for the former.

Why does it matter? If Germany goes to war against Russia, how does she benefit by not aligning Rumania and Finland?

Edit- wait I get it. As above, if Russia revokes the pact and Germany does not DoW, then the question arises. I still think the rules say it can happen regardless of the pact.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:44 am
by Ullern
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
ORIGINAL: ullern

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



IMHO - Yes! My rationale is that 19.5 in the rules is the N-S Pact, but 19.6 is Soviet Border Rectification. So as long as Rumania is still neutral....

I see your answer. And now I've read the rules. The rules doesn't say anything really about this situation with no pact but no war either. The way I read 19.6 it deals with how the different countries behave pre-war which really was a consequence of the pact, and secondly the 19.6 tells how, and when the different countries Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary and Rumania may be aligned.

The part about aligning must be a valid rule throughout the game for obvious reasons.

But the part about the claiming of the borderlands should be invalidated at some event like the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I grant you that the way the 19.6 is written now there is no limit on when the claiming borderlands can be done. That means that as a rule lawyer someone could say that even after Germany and USSR is at war, the USSR must still claim the borderlands of Finland or Rumania before they can later declare war on those countries.

I find this quite absurd. I don't see why the USSR would accept a political move by Germany to negotiate a mall land grant from a minor country after the USSR is at war with Germany, when the USSR intention to include Finland or Rumania in the war is likely a move just to hurt Germany somehow. (And it would be quite absurd if Germany accepted a USSR claim when Germany and the USSR is at war.)

My conclusion is that there must be a limit on when borderlands can be claimed. Even though the rule doesn't say what the limit is. There are two logical choices: When the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I'll vote for the former.

Why does it matter? If Germany goes to war against Russia, how does she benefit by not aligning Rumania and Finland?

Edit- wait I get it. As above, if Russia revokes the pact and Germany does not DoW, then the question arises. I still think the rules say it can happen regardless of the pact.

Yes. Your "edit" is one case. But also this case: Say USSR DOW Germany and not the other way around. Then Finland can no longer be aligned, and depending on what has happened or not with Rumania earlier in that game, Germany may have to DOW Yugo to align Rumania. In these cases there is still a possibility that the USSR see some benefit in including Finland and Rumania in the war. But I don't know what the reasons may be.


RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:36 am
by Droop21
ORIGINAL: ullern

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
ORIGINAL: ullern




I see your answer. And now I've read the rules. The rules doesn't say anything really about this situation with no pact but no war either. The way I read 19.6 it deals with how the different countries behave pre-war which really was a consequence of the pact, and secondly the 19.6 tells how, and when the different countries Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary and Rumania may be aligned.

The part about aligning must be a valid rule throughout the game for obvious reasons.

But the part about the claiming of the borderlands should be invalidated at some event like the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I grant you that the way the 19.6 is written now there is no limit on when the claiming borderlands can be done. That means that as a rule lawyer someone could say that even after Germany and USSR is at war, the USSR must still claim the borderlands of Finland or Rumania before they can later declare war on those countries.

I find this quite absurd. I don't see why the USSR would accept a political move by Germany to negotiate a mall land grant from a minor country after the USSR is at war with Germany, when the USSR intention to include Finland or Rumania in the war is likely a move just to hurt Germany somehow. (And it would be quite absurd if Germany accepted a USSR claim when Germany and the USSR is at war.)

My conclusion is that there must be a limit on when borderlands can be claimed. Even though the rule doesn't say what the limit is. There are two logical choices: When the pact is broken or when the Germany and USSR is at war. I'll vote for the former.

Why does it matter? If Germany goes to war against Russia, how does she benefit by not aligning Rumania and Finland?

Edit- wait I get it. As above, if Russia revokes the pact and Germany does not DoW, then the question arises. I still think the rules say it can happen regardless of the pact.

Yes. Your "edit" is one case. But also this case: Say USSR DOW Germany and not the other way around. Then Finland can no longer be aligned, and depending on what has happened or not with Rumania earlier in that game, Germany may have to DOW Yugo to align Rumania. In these cases there is still a possibility that the USSR see some benefit in including Finland and Rumania in the war. But I don't know what the reasons may be.

When the tide of war has turned in favor of the SU, dowing Rumania enables to go after the Ploesti oil fields, with a double benefit: taking (IIRC) 50% of Germany's oil ressources and gaining them for the SU. I agree that Finland seems a far fetched idea (maybe to go after a German occupied Norway ?)

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:13 pm
by paulderynck
Further to the ability to claim the Borderlands or Bessarabia after the NS Pact is no more, this morning I spotted the following text under the rule for Finland:
"Germany can enforce a peace between Finland and the USSR during any peace step if:
ï no hex of Finland, outside the Finnish border lands, is Soviet controlled; and
ï Germany and the USSR are not at war."

The second bullet would be unnecessary unless:
a) USSR and Germany go to war while the USSR is at war with Finland, or
b) Germany and the USSR were already at war when the Borderlands were demanded

Case b) would apply to when the Pact is already broken, and Russia demands the Borderlands.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:51 pm
by Ullern
ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Further to the ability to claim the Borderlands or Bessarabia after the NS Pact is no more, this morning I spotted the following text under the rule for Finland:
"Germany can enforce a peace between Finland and the USSR during any peace step if:
ï no hex of Finland, outside the Finnish border lands, is Soviet controlled; and
ï Germany and the USSR are not at war."

The second bullet would be unnecessary unless:
a) USSR and Germany go to war while the USSR is at war with Finland, or
b) Germany and the USSR were already at war when the Borderlands were demanded

Case b) would apply to when the Pact is already broken, and Russia demands the Borderlands.

Yes it is relevant information. But I don't really see that this proves Harry planned on letting the USSR have to demand Finish borderlands after the Barbarossa has started.

I am somewhat biased by my experiences as a WIF player, while I really don't know if my group is anything close to an average group or not.

But I've played something like 30 campaigns, I'll estimate Finish borderland was claimed in 10 of them. Germany denied claim in 8 and accepted in only 2. If I remember wrong it's only 1 accepted. Of the 8 denied I am quite sure Russia didn't take Helsinki in more than 3 of those cses, so I am quite sure there must be at least 5 cases of not reaching Helsinki. (Particularly I remember that in the early games Helsinki was never taken, which was the reason that players playing Russia stopped trying the claim and nobody tried for many years until one day there was some dude who had read some smart moves on the yahoo list tried in anyway and succeeded.)

So your reason a) in your post above I consider common, and it would surprise me if the rules would not cover this. But the scenario with Russia DOWing Germany I've seen only twice, and in once case Germany was toast and in the other case Germany immediately forfeited the game. So to actually play out such a case I would consider rare, and I am not so surprised the rules isn't clear about this case.

Actually there is a third case not yet mentioned, where claiming of borderlands after Russia DOWs is relevant:

I've seen some games where Germany DOWs Russia and aligns Rumania the same impulse, but not Finland, because Germany is allowed to align only one country per impulse, and then the USSR DOWs Finland immediately next impulse, simply because the USSR player wants to see where Germany sets up the Finish units. My group allowed this no matter if the borderlands was claimed or not, but we didn't discuss the case.

RE: Early results from WiF Down Under

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:38 am
by Anendrue
Your AAR was downright entertaining. Thanks for the read.