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After trying many, many sci-fi 4x games - I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that developers "just don't get it". I stumbled upon Distant Worlds purely by accident yesterday - and after reading the features and forums I was getting incredibly excited. Would my search for a good replacement of moo2/se4 finally be over?

Alas, I've played for several hours now and the initial impressions aren't too positive. Don't get me wrong- it's still early days but early impressions count for a lot. I don't mind steep learning curves, I love complex games. But I feel Distant Worlds really missed the mark on some aspects. I have no idea if these can (or would) be resolved through patches or if it's purely the game design, but here's how I felt:

• I feel incredibly out of control of what's going on. This is due to a multitude of reasons, at least it's how I feel right now:
• My empire pretty much runs itself and doesn't really need me, at all. Besides for some incredibly shallow diplomacy options there is fairly little to do.
• Ships and their controls are pretty confusing and it's very hard to keep track of them all.
• Combat is quick and decisive, it's pretty much an rts as far as combat goes.
• Due to above, fleet/ship tactics are shallow and follow the 'zerg with as many units as possible' line, rather than traditional 4x sci-fi games where design > everything.
• Income/Resource wise there is an incredibly deep system in the background, but the player doesn't notice much of it. A pity as there's tons of 'hidden' depth.
• Research sucks and might as well not be in the game in the current format. I have no control other than spamming a few more research bases/space ports to increase research speeds.
• I love designing ships and avoid most strategy games which don't include this (A reason why I only played Armada for about 2 hours tops). However, in Distant Worlds I don't feel compelled to design ships, since I see so little in return for it.
• The interface is clumsy and doesn't give me the information or controls I would really want. Renaming objects is cumbersome yet it's the first thing I want to do with ANY new colony or ship..
• I just feel a bit... bored. I don't know what to do or what the point really is. I believe the best summary would be: I don't feel the immersion! moo2 has the little diplomacy/research/colonisation etc. videos that greatly help to get immersed in the game. In Distant Worlds I don't feel even the smallest sliver of connection to my empire, my people, my ships. I just feel like i'm watching a simulation. Granted it's entertaining and innovative for a bit but I don't see this last for a long time

I know this sounds a bit like a rant, and it probably is - but I am a little disappointed after being quite excited by what this game could have been. I feel the information/feature pages definitely lack to describe the game adequately.

If anyone has any tips on how to get into the game or learn to enjoy it - please do let me know as I *want* to like it!

My advice to you is to turn off AI control for everything. The only reason you don’t feel involved or immersed, is because the AI is handling everything and as you state clearly above, you don’t yet understand the game and how it works.

This game is deep and very complex, without the AI management, it would easily overwhelm most people. I think you’re expecting too much too soon. If you turn off AI control, you’ll soon find yourself engrossed in the steep learning curve to master this complex game and will learn to appreciate the breathing space AI control has given you as a new player, rather than scorn it for keeping you uninvolved to the point of boredom.

AI control is a tool, you obviously don’t want to use it to the extent it is currently set for, so take the plunge, turn it off, and invest the time to really delve into the game.

Jim

The game is about macro control and not MOO2 style micro management of game elements.I control exploring,colonizing,construction ships,main fleets(not escorts),spying,diplomacy in my games.The resource system is very important so get your construction ships to mine demanded resources.

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your reply. I actually turned off AI control at the start of my first game and did everything myself. I found this didn't work very well since the interface doesn't show a lot when you're zoomed in - and the various zoomed out levels don't show sufficient detail/statistics for my liking. I found it incredibly difficult to keep track of where specific ships are, for example.

Exploration manually quickly became a bit of a drag - a pity as I expected the most of this aspect. Right this very moment I am trying to micro-manage some ships/fleets to get more immersed but it's not looking good. I found a capital ship in some ruin which I am using to wipe out some pirates, but again the zoomed in view just doesn't show me enough - I don't find the overview very pleasant. Combat wise it makes for a rather unspectacular rts-show, rather than a 4x game.

Like many people, I feared the real-time aspect and so far most of my fears were justified. Is there anything specific someone can recommend trying that would show me a more fun aspect of the game?

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
The game is about macro control and not MOO2 style micro management of game elements.I control exploring,colonizing,construction ships,main fleets(not escorts),spying,diplomacy in my games.The resource system is very important so get your construction ships to mine demanded resources.

That's pretty much what I've been doing and I found it wasn't really enough to prevent me from watching the screen with nothing to do quite frequently? I just feel very detached from my empire.

yeah the way I see it you are the king/queen/head of state/dictator/hive overmind ruling your empire and the A.I is like your henchmen/generals etc in the field.

I like games like this as once they get going you can watch wars start and die out etc.

When a full wish list gets going maybe you can add what you would like to see added?

Then speed the game up.Have you ever played EU3,the game requires changing the speed up and down,it is no different to turn based games where you press the turn key quickly.

I think the problem is more fundamental spidergod, I'm trying extremely hard to enjoy the game right now but I am utterly failing. The interface and general overview just doesn't do the job for me- I have ships under attack and messages popping up left/right but I don't know the ships (renaming really is hard work!), don't know where they are and the only way to find anything seems through the colony and ship overview lists. To really get an overview you end up playing zoomed-out most of the time, which defeats the point of having the nifty zoomed-in view.

It's not that I am struggling with the game, don't get me wrong. It's beyond easy and my empire is doing great. I am just not enjoying myself - which is the primary goal of any game I buy really. This one was fairly expensive compared to most games. I bought it as I like to support smaller developers who try something different, but so far I feel I've wasted my money - I'm just not really having fun. [:(]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Then speed the game up.Have you ever played EU3,the game requires changing the speed up and down,it is no different to turn based games where you press the turn key quickly.

I have indeed played EU3. It's one of very few games in my collection I regret buying as I didn't manage to enjoy that game despite trying. The genre/setting has a really strong appeal to me.
As far as 4x/sci-fi games go, I prefer games such as Moo2, Stars!, Space Empires, etc.

Evil Tactician,

I have to assume you haven't quite figured out the game yet. For me, once I got it, it became a game that could suck me in for weeks if I let it do so.

ORIGINAL: Evil Tactician
[*]My empire pretty much runs itself and doesn't really need me, at all. Besides for some incredibly shallow diplomacy options there is fairly little to do.

Having played DW a lot, I think this is an inaccurate conclusion. Your empire _can_ run itself, but then it's not really yours. If you get involved, it will work better, be more powerful, be more unique and customized to your wishes. There are tons of areas to get involved in here and I have to assume you haven't really seen all the options open up for you yet.

What kind of game did you start in terms of galaxy size and other options?

[*]Ships and their controls are pretty confusing and it's very hard to keep track of them all.

Hm, have you looked at the Ships and Bases screen and the filters and sortable fields there, as well as the fleets and ship design screen? What part are you finding most confusing? If you're having trouble figuring out what your ships are doing, then I understand why you feel out of control.

[*]Combat is quick and decisive, it's pretty much an rts as far as combat goes.

What speed are you running at? This also depends on ship designs and force comparison, but combat is not a very lengthy process (most space combats are not).

[*]Due to above, fleet/ship tactics are shallow and follow the 'zerg with as many units as possible' line, rather than traditional 4x sci-fi games where design > everything.

Design is actually very important. If you leave it automated though, then design itself is less important than just keeping ships updated to the latest design with the latest components. I find a lot of difference between the different ships and their roles. As in any game, you can always build a big fleet and overwhelm the enemy - that's not unique to DW and pretty much every space 4x has had that possibility. I find DW is good about making you pay for those big fleets though, both in terms of initial cost in money and resources as well as ongoing upkeep and fuel. If you focus on the big fleet strategy, you can easily bankrupt your economy.

[*]Income/Resource wise there is an incredibly deep system in the background, but the player doesn't notice much of it. A pity as there's tons of 'hidden' depth.

I think this is just a matter of experience as the tools are there to notice what's going on, but it takes a while to realize how you can best help your economy grow.

[*]Research sucks and might as well not be in the game in the current format. I have no control other than spamming a few more research bases/space ports to increase research speeds.

Well, you have control over base design to determine what kind of bases to build, how many labs they wil have of each kind (and thus what areas they will focus on, which shifts your research priorities) as well as where to build those bases for research bonuses and for strategic reasons (you need to be able to defend your research bases too if it comes to a war). Finally, you can declare a "crash program" for any given component to speed things along.

[*]I love designing ships and avoid most strategy games which don't include this (A reason why I only played Armada for about 2 hours tops). However, in Distant Worlds I don't feel compelled to design ships, since I see so little in return for it.

I'm really surprised at this comment, to be honest. There is a lot of return for it - will you have ship designs if you automate them? Yes. Can you have a lot more fun and create some very unique and customized ships that are very effective if you do the design yourself? Absolutely! Take a look at what Okim did in his AAR here and tell me that doesn't add to his fun:

tm.asp?m=2414770

[*]The interface is clumsy and doesn't give me the information or controls I would really want. Renaming objects is cumbersome yet it's the first thing I want to do with ANY new colony or ship..

Not sure what to say here other than can you be more specific? I think the interface is actually darn good and renaming ships is easy. Just double click on the ship name in the bottom left display once you have it selected, then type in the new name in the screen that appears.

[*]I just feel a bit... bored. I don't know what to do or what the point really is. I believe the best summary would be: I don't feel the immersion! moo2 has the little diplomacy/research/colonisation etc. videos that greatly help to get immersed in the game. In Distant Worlds I don't feel even the smallest sliver of connection to my empire, my people, my ships. I just feel like i'm watching a simulation. Granted it's entertaining and innovative for a bit but I don't see this last for a long time

For some reason, it's not clicking with you, but based on your comments I think you are really missing a lot yet. Dive back in and try a very small galaxy, smallest you can, starting from the beginning and do more things manually. Play at 0.5x or 1x speed to give yourself some time to really get into it.

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Evil Tactician
I have ships under attack and messages popping up left/right but I don't know the ships (renaming really is hard work!), don't know where they are and the only way to find anything seems through the colony and ship overview lists. To really get an overview you end up playing zoomed-out most of the time, which defeats the point of having the nifty zoomed-in view.

Are you not aware that if you click on the message it immediately moves you to the event?

Regards,

- Erik

Hi Erik,

Thank you for taking the time to reply - I appreciate it.

Having played DW a lot, I think this is an inaccurate conclusion. Your empire _can_ run itself, but then it's not really yours. If you get involved, it will work better, be more powerful, be more unique and customized to your wishes. There are tons of areas to get involved in here and I have to assume you haven't really seen all the options open up for you yet.

What kind of game did you start in terms of galaxy size and other options?

I've started with the same settings I prefer in any 4x game, especially when playing the first time: Most basic tech levels, most basic starting size, smallest universe, and in this case I selected 5 opponents. I set 1 opponent to nearby, 2 to further away and 2 to distant, to allow for some distance and room. This did the job very well in terms of room for expansion, etc.

I did notice there was no way to start with the classic start of 1 colony, 1 colony ship and 1-2 exploration vessels though - which was disappointing. Then again, the nature of the game with the private sector etc. makes such a start more difficult. Still, worth implementing!

Hm, have you looked at the Ships and Bases screen and the filters and sortable fields there, as well as the fleets and ship design screen? What part are you finding most confusing? If you're having trouble figuring out what your ships are doing, then I understand why you feel out of control.

Yes, the most frustrating part is having to use the ships/bases/colony screens merely to find out where ships are and what they are doing. The interface should show this slightly more clearly. For example, fleets could be assigned an icon, or number which represents them on the zoomed out overviews, allowing you to much more clearly see where your individual fleets are located. I appreciate this is harder for individual ships.

What speed are you running at? This also depends on ship designs and force comparison, but combat is not a very lengthy process (most space combats are not).

I run at 'normal' speed when I have nothing to do and slow it right down if I feel too many things are going on.

Design is actually very important. If you leave it automated though, then design itself is less important than just keeping ships updated to the latest design with the latest components. I find a lot of difference between the different ships and their roles. As in any game, you can always build a big fleet and overwhelm the enemy - that's not unique to DW and pretty much every space 4x has had that possibility. I find DW is good about making you pay for those big fleets though, both in terms of initial cost in money and resources as well as ongoing upkeep and fuel. If you focus on the big fleet strategy, you can easily bankrupt your economy.

I probably haven't spent sufficient time ingame to really reap the benefits of custom ship design. Unfortunately I just quit my first game as I am half a day playing in and I just don't know my empire, at all. I don't know my colonies, their names, their locations, etc. despite manually planting them. I find it VERY hard to keep a good overview of my empire without zooming right out - at which point you lose a lot of information and control.

I think this is just a matter of experience as the tools are there to notice what's going on, but it takes a while to realize how you can best help your economy grow.

Basically, I find it too easy. Since everything is shipped automatically by civilians, all you have to do is ensure mining bases are present at locations which have required resources. I think a few options/features that make certain locations more strategically important would be of great help.

I'm really surprised at this comment, to be honest. There is a lot of return for it - will you have ship designs if you automate them? Yes. Can you have a lot more fun and create some very unique and customized ships that are very effective if you do the design yourself? Absolutely! Take a look at what Okim did in his AAR here and tell me that doesn't add to his fun:

tm.asp?m=2414770

Ultimately though, you don't have a great deal of control over the ships you designed. I guess it comes back to the other points - this area of the game isn't actually bad, I just don't feel compelled to dive into them due to the interface/overview problems I am experiencing.

Not sure what to say here other than can you be more specific? I think the interface is actually darn good and renaming ships is easy. Just double click on the ship name in the bottom left display once you have it selected, then type in the new name in the screen that appears.

Strange, I tried that and it didn't work. Ended up having to go through the colony/ship overview screens to rename individual ones - I will definitely try that again as that would eliminate a huge aggravation!

For some reason, it's not clicking with you, but based on your comments I think you are really missing a lot yet. Dive back in and try a very small galaxy, smallest you can, starting from the beginning and do more things manually. Play at 0.5x or 1x speed to give yourself some time to really get into it.

I will give it another go - I have the feeling I am missing something based on the remarks of people on the forums. Thank you for trying to convince me - and please don't get me wrong. I think you guys have done a great job as a small company, and I am pleased to see someone trying something 'different' for once.
I just have to get used to the interface and I am sure that upcoming patches can implement some small adjustments and improvements to make things easier. I'm not quite willing to give up yet



To keep this thread at least constructive, some suggestions:

• Option for a 'basic start' - 1 Colony, 1 Exploration Vessel.
• Option to run off all designs, let the player design everything!
• Option during set-up to have all races start equal to the player, so you only have to set the start options once. (Equal in terms of homeplanet/tech level, etc.)
• Option to disable spying and everything related to it.
• The ability to zoom out a tiny bit further while still seeing the ships/planets graphically, to get more overview.
• A way to distinguish fleets from each other in the zoomed out overviews.
• A way to easily see 'missing' resources when building something.
• An indication of 'build progress' on objects that are under construction. Unless I am missing something I am being told how many components are left to create, is it possible to have a progress bar or percentage?
• Carriers / Fighters in the future would be great Even if it's quite simple like Moo2 did it, where you add a bay as component which adds a few fighters to a ship.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Are you not aware that if you click on the message it immediately moves you to the event?

Regards,

- Erik

Yes - I more or less meant that sometimes I want to locate a ship quickly without having to refer to the 'ship overview'. I've never been a fan of those tables and prefer to navigate to ships and colonies through the universe/system screens. I find that slightly less easy in DW. A lack of experience with the interface, almost surely - but there are certainly small improvements that could be made to make things easier

ORIGINAL: Evil Tactician


[*]An indication of 'build progress' on objects that are under construction. Unless I am missing something I am being told how many components are left to create, is it possible to have a progress bar or percentage?

On this topic, I noticed that you cannot see the 'real time' progress of ship completion when on the construction screen. It has a percentage in the 'ships currently under construction' window (bottom left) but you need to close it and re-open it to see the progress.

True. While we're on that topic - where do you see the progress of a base that's under construction?

Surely that's in the Construction window? There's also a handy (but quite small) icon showing what's being built in the list.

Some games just don't click with some....one mans meat is anothers poisen etc etc.

Evil Tactician....this might be a game that grows on you....or may need to come back to it another time...maybe when some mods\expansions have been released....its happened to me plenty of times.....bought a game people love but just didnt enjoy mysself....not because the game was bad...just not my thing....

ORIGINAL: wodin

Some games just don't click with some....one mans meat is anothers poisen etc etc.

Evil Tactician....this might be a game that grows on you....or may need to come back to it another time...maybe when some mods\expansions have been released....its happened to me plenty of times.....bought a game people love but just didnt enjoy mysself....not because the game was bad...just not my thing....

I think you are absolutely right on that one
I've given up for now, I'll wait for a few patches and mods and then give it another chance

ORIGINAL: Evil Tactician
I did notice there was no way to start with the classic start of 1 colony, 1 colony ship and 1-2 exploration vessels though - which was disappointing. Then again, the nature of the game with the private sector etc. makes such a start more difficult. Still, worth implementing!

This would actually be an "advanced/hard" start in that it would be very easy for new players to get in real trouble not knowing where to best expand. We try to start you with one colony and a bare minimum resource network so that you can build things from the start.

Yes, the most frustrating part is having to use the ships/bases/colony screens merely to find out where ships are and what they are doing. The interface should show this slightly more clearly. For example, fleets could be assigned an icon, or number which represents them on the zoomed out overviews, allowing you to much more clearly see where your individual fleets are located. I appreciate this is harder for individual ships.

I'm not entirely clear on this - each ship has an icon and when you form a fleet, it gets its own unique icon with the number of ships in the fleet that shows up on the map to show you where it is. You can also assign ships to numbered groups using Control-1 etc. to then call them up again by just hitting a number key. On the zoomed out view, each ship category has a different kind of icon (i.e. all military ships are triangles) so that you can see pretty easily where trade is flowing, where your military is, etc. If you click on a ship icon in the zoomed out view, their data shows up in the bottom left, telling you their mission and cargo (if appropriate) as well.

I probably haven't spent sufficient time ingame to really reap the benefits of custom ship design. Unfortunately I just quit my first game as I am half a day playing in and I just don't know my empire, at all. I don't know my colonies, their names, their locations, etc. despite manually planting them. I find it VERY hard to keep a good overview of my empire without zooming right out - at which point you lose a lot of information and control.

Hm, I hope this is just a learning curve and adjustment issue as I haven't had any trouble getting immersed in that way and coming to know my colonies, ships and trade routes. While it is possible that it's just not your cup of tea, I would encourage you to give it another chance. I can't help but hope that you will "get it" soon if you try a bit harder.

Basically, I find it too easy. Since everything is shipped automatically by civilians, all you have to do is ensure mining bases are present at locations which have required resources. I think a few options/features that make certain locations more strategically important would be of great help.

Aha! Ok, now this I can help you with. If you feel things are too easy, use some of the many sliders on galaxy start to make resources more scarce, your initial system less "easy" and make the galaxy as a whole more unstable/restless. That should keep you much more on your toes. The default level is designed to be a bit more welcoming to new players. Personally I do not play on the default level any longer, I adjust the sliders to give myself more of a challenge, but as you can see from a lot of other reports I think the default level is a good starting point for most first time players.

Ultimately though, you don't have a great deal of control over the ships you designed. I guess it comes back to the other points - this area of the game isn't actually bad, I just don't feel compelled to dive into them due to the interface/overview problems I am experiencing.

Ok, so the first step is to get past your interface issues then. I'm an old hand with the interface now and have an easy time reviewing what's going on. Do you normally prefer to play more zoomed out or more zoomed in? If you could add in one interface feature that you feel would help you keep track of your ships, what would it be?

Strange, I tried that and it didn't work. Ended up having to go through the colony/ship overview screens to rename individual ones - I will definitely try that again as that would eliminate a huge aggravation!

Aha, glad I could help - that's how I do it. If you double click in the name area for anything you have selected, it will bring up the detailed info for that ship/base/planet and you can rename it right on that screen.

I will give it another go - I have the feeling I am missing something based on the remarks of people on the forums. Thank you for trying to convince me - and please don't get me wrong. I think you guys have done a great job as a small company, and I am pleased to see someone trying something 'different' for once.
I just have to get used to the interface and I am sure that upcoming patches can implement some small adjustments and improvements to make things easier. I'm not quite willing to give up yet

Ok, I appreciate that you are giving it a go, please let me know if you have any more specific frustrations, perhaps we can figure out a way to get you around them.

[*]Option for a 'basic start' - 1 Colony, 1 Exploration Vessel.

This would be really hard not to get into a major problem resource-wise. Maybe later as a "hard" option, but basically what we start you off with now is 1 Colony and just enough to have a basic resource network.

[*]Option to run off all designs, let the player design everything!

If you turn off ship design automation, you should be able to redesign things as you wish and the AI will never update or change them after the initial starting designs. Do you mean to start with no designs at all? This seems like it would also cause a lot of trouble for new players, just to figure out what designs they need to account for.

[*]Option during set-up to have all races start equal to the player, so you only have to set the start options once. (Equal in terms of homeplanet/tech level, etc.)

You mean just in terms of reducing the number of clicks?

[*]Option to disable spying and everything related to it.

I'm curious why you requested this? Espionage is usually a popular feature.

[*]A way to distinguish fleets from each other in the zoomed out overviews.

Personally once I see the fleet icons, it's easy enough for me to click on each one if I need a reminder, though usually I know where I have each fleet. What would you envision as far as differentiation goes?

[*]A way to easily see 'missing' resources when building something.

Great suggestion and we should implement this as an improvement. Right now if you have a good sense of your economy you will know what you're missing, but I absolutely agree we should make this easier to see at the point of ordering something to be built.

[*]An indication of 'build progress' on objects that are under construction. Unless I am missing something I am being told how many components are left to create, is it possible to have a progress bar or percentage?

Yes, the percentage progress is already there for construction yards as well as the number of unbuilt components. Just look in the detailed screen, so for example for a space port double click on its name, then look in the construction yards tab to see what percentage progress it's at on each ship under construction. Same goes for ships being built at planets. For something being built in space, like a mining station, you can look at the construction ship details I believe.

[*]Carriers / Fighters in the future would be great Even if it's quite simple like Moo2 did it, where you add a bay as component which adds a few fighters to a ship.
[/ul]

I do like carriers myself, we'll have to see what the future holds. We are certainly hoping to not just support this release but also add expansions to it as there is tremendous room for growth now that we have the basic game complete.

Hey Erik,

Speaking of inital impressions, I've just given up on my first game after it crashed yet again and I realised I hadn't saved it for a while :/. I'm planning to try another, but I have a few complaints/questions:

Non-automated ships seem a bit dumb and won't return fire without orders. As an example I sent a fleet to attack a pirate base, and when I checked up on them a few moments later they had destroyed it, but they were just sitting passivly while the pirate ships shot at them. Ships without orders should really attack nearby enemies, or at least return fire if a nearby ship is being attacked.

I'd really like to see a better overview of what resources I have, where they are mined, where they are being shipped too etc. Maybe some kind of trade routes screen? Right now all I can see is a list of resources I mine, but they just vanish into the private sector and clicking around every planet's cargo section is a chore. I'd also like to see what I'm trading with other races.

I think I fell victim to the "suddenly all your resources are being shipped to you cololonies and your home world's economy tanks" problem others have mentioned, but I see you're working on that already.

Obviously the constant crashing an a problem, but again it seems you're alreayd looking into it.