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Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:00 pm
by Krelos
I broke the game balance in perhaps the worst way possible.
I'll let this image explain.
It seems that there needs to be some limits on what resupply ships can have....
I suspect the same could be done with any ship class built at a planet.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:12 pm
by Conflictx
Hahaha, hilarious.. I've got to try that one. How much is the maintenance on that thing?
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:30 pm
by HsojVvad
You did it again? When did you do it the first time? [:'(] How did you make it? Being size 8082, where and how can you build something like that?
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:46 pm
by Krelos
The maintenance cost is about 30k [:D]
I did it by making it a resupply ship, which are built at a planet and so have no size limits.
It has, for example, 175 engines and 50 reactors...
I love refueling it. It takes a couple months and can suck 2 planetary shipyards dry before it's full.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:55 pm
by Wade1000
That's beautiful! Bravo.
I hope that the developers do not remove this ability. I like world/base ships. I like that we can place as many components as we like and the ship image grows to match. The balance part is build time and cost, maintenance cost, and refuel/repair time/cost.
OF course, the AI should be able to design and build world/base ships at appropriate times also. The Ai should be able to design and use anything to some degree, that the player is capable of. The Ai should be able to competently use all new advances and features.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:14 pm
by Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:15 pm
by mbar
ORIGINAL: Wade1000
That's beautiful! Bravo.
I hope that the developers do not remove this ability. I like world ships. I like that we can place as many components as we like and the ship image grows to match. The balance part is build time and cost, maintenance cost, and refuel/repair time/cost.
I agree this game is so flexable. You can make the game, the galaxy and ships what you want. I like the design of ships and how flexable it is. You're not locked in to anything. This is a great game. [&o]
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:42 pm
by Krelos
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
If I might suggest, instead of outright removing the ability to make ridiculously huge ships, making it even more expensive. Like, over a certain size, the cost and maintenance begin to rise faster, until the point where you could spend millions on a ship like what I made, with hundreds of thousands for maintenance.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:47 pm
by Wade1000
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
[&:] So... we have the ability to make world/base ships in this great game and is it that the developers want to remove the ability?
Instead of removing it, if you feel that it is overpowering, try increasing those varying balance costs
and setting the AI to sometimes make them too.
The balance part is build time and cost, maintenance cost, and refuel/repair time/cost.
Huge world/base ships in a game like this remind me of some ground war games that have the ability to create expensive and huge robots that tower over the battlefield. They are often a great selling point to such games.
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ORIGINAL: mbar
ORIGINAL: Wade1000
That's beautiful! Bravo.
I hope that the developers do not remove this ability. I like world ships. I like that we can place as many components as we like and the ship image grows to match. The balance part is build time and cost, maintenance cost, and refuel/repair time/cost.
I agree this game is so flexable. You can make the game, the galaxy and ships what you want. I like the design of ships and how flexable it is. You're not locked in to anything. This is a great game. [&o]
I agree.
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ORIGINAL: Krelos
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
If I might suggest, instead of outright removing the ability to make ridiculously huge ships, making it even more expensive. Like, over a certain size, the cost and maintenance begin to rise faster, until the point where you could spend millions on a ship like what I made, with hundreds of thousands for maintenance.
I agree; but maybe not so expensive.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:51 pm
by HsojVvad
I would say keep it in. It`s a single player game after all. So how can nerfing this desgin benifit the person who bought the game. (damn, when I try to use a quesiton mark I get this É freaking annoying.)
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:53 pm
by Grotius
I agree, keep it in, or maybe make it an option. Jack up the cost (or vulnerability) in some way, if need be. It's fun.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:21 pm
by Wade1000
Yeah, fun elements that can be balanced, fit into the game, and AI capable, should not be removed. That is, basically, removing some fun.
I suppose, if the developers planned an expansion to have a version of world/base ships then they might want to remove this current version of it only to later announce a version of them returning in an expansion. [8|]
Not that that is an obvious scenario of what might be happening. I'm only considering a possible explanation of possible actions regarding the resupply ship-world/base ship. [;)]
Perhaps this type of world/base ship, along with a fleet of smaller ships, could be the counter to an empire that has "turtled up"/gone extremly defensive with many super defense bases.
A fleet with a world/base ship or more could act as a possible "base breaker".
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:06 pm
by PDiFolco
The trick here is that the devs thought that in order to have big enough resupply ships they should be considered as bases regarding size limits. They didn't expect exploiting that hole to build uberwarships instead !
There's not really a rationale to allow "resupply" or whatever ship to exceed the standard size limits- after all large freighters use this limit ...Unless the game features distinct "military" and "civilian" hulls (as done for bases vs ship hulls), allowing bigger civilian ships in exchange for some weapon/shield/engine limitations.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:45 am
by martok
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
Good. Being able to construct "worldships" just feels too gimmicky.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:58 am
by Wade1000
ORIGINAL: martok
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Sorry Wade, but we are looking into this "feature" of the current resupply ship design. I expect there will be a few additional limits before long.
Good. Being able to construct "worldships" just feels too gimmicky.
Only if you are thinking of this futuristic science fiction game as a World War 2 game.
So, to you, a super lare ship is gimmicky while many of the other various technologies are okay? What more advanced technologies would you expect in updates that are not too gimmicky?
There's are ships in the game that can blow up planets... We can not even research that weapon ourselves; same thing with the governments. SOMEONE in the past researched them.
I dislike the idea of lost, unatainable advances. I dislike artificial limitations. They make a game less... epic then it could be.
Besides, that world/base ship design is size 8082. That doesn't seem so big compared to other ships that can be size 4000 and bases that can be size 12000.
Check out this site related to starship sizes:
http://www.merzo.net/index.html (STARSHIP DIMENSIONS) Note: You can click and drag the ship pictures.
Maybe this will inspire some people to accept the world/base ship design via the resupply ship and convince the developers to adjust the AI to design and build it some times also.
Maybe balance it more, if need be, by adjusting the build time and cost, maintenance cost, and refuel/repair time/cost.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:58 pm
by BigWolfChris
Personally, I think having the World Ship using the role "Resupply Ship" is the problem
Obviously it is now being used outside of it's role
Of course, surely you could still do the same with Construction Ships as well, but now able to build bases at the same time
If people really want these type of designs, it might be worth adding a new role we can design them
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:22 pm
by FerretStyle
ORIGINAL: Krelos
If I might suggest, instead of outright removing the ability to make ridiculously huge ships, making it even more expensive. Like, over a certain size, the cost and maintenance begin to rise faster, until the point where you could spend millions on a ship like what I made, with hundreds of thousands for maintenance.
What difference does it make if your economy tanks if you can go insta-kill any empire instantly with an invulnerable ship? With enough energy collectors the thing doesn't even need fuel.
Just because it's a single player game doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced or ignore all rationale. If there was a god-cannon would that be cool just cause players could choose not to use it? Can you give a good reason that these things can bypass normal ship size limitations even? That doesn't make sense at all...
Of course there's nothing wrong with people "playing how they want" or whatever, but this is the kind of thing (ie: cheating) you should be able to mod into the game, not something that's provided in the core game. It removes any kind of challenge and devalues the experience in general.
Not that this affects me really, I'm not gonna build one, the AI isn't gonna build one. But the core game should be reasonably balanced. Let them balance it. I'm sure you will find plenty of other ways to exploit and dominate the AI.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:40 pm
by LitFuel
ORIGINAL: FerretStyle
ORIGINAL: Krelos
If I might suggest, instead of outright removing the ability to make ridiculously huge ships, making it even more expensive. Like, over a certain size, the cost and maintenance begin to rise faster, until the point where you could spend millions on a ship like what I made, with hundreds of thousands for maintenance.
What difference does it make if your economy tanks if you can go insta-kill any empire instantly with an invulnerable ship? With enough energy collectors the thing doesn't even need fuel.
Just because it's a single player game doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced or ignore all rationale. If there was a god-cannon would that be cool just cause players could choose not to use it? Can you give a good reason that these things can bypass normal ship size limitations even? That doesn't make sense at all...
Of course there's nothing wrong with people "playing how they want" or whatever, but this is the kind of thing (ie: cheating) you should be able to mod into the game, not something that's provided in the core game. It removes any kind of challenge and devalues the experience in general.
Not that this affects me really, I'm not gonna build one, the AI isn't gonna build one. But the core game should be reasonably balanced. Let them balance it. I'm sure you will find plenty of other ways to exploit and dominate the AI.
So your saying it really doesn't matter but I don't want anyone having fun that I don't get or am not having myself. If it was a multiplayer game I would say yes fix it but if people are having fun goofing around experimenting then why not. It's not hurting anyone and it's fun for people...yes this is the world we live in now...suck the joy out if we don't understand it. I personally won't be doing it for now but later on when the game gets boring I would like the option to play around with it. And don't bring up the modding thing...some of us are just not good at modding or want to deal with that. Besides so far I haven't seen how this game is as moddable as other 4X's I've seen. Live and let live I say...power to the people and all that...lol
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:55 pm
by FerretStyle
ORIGINAL: LitFuel
So your saying it really doesn't matter but I don't want anyone having fun that I don't get or am not having myself. If it was a multiplayer game I would say yes fix it but if people are having fun goofing around experimenting then why not. It's not hurting anyone and it's fun for people...yes this is the world we live in now...suck the joy out if we don't understand it. I personally won't be doing it for now but later on when the game gets boring I would like the option to play around with it. And don't bring up the modding thing...some of us are just not good at modding or want to deal with that. Besides so far I haven't seen how this game is as moddable as other 4X's I've seen. Live and let live I say...power to the people and all that...lol
I don't think you really "get" what I was saying at all.
Just because it's a single player game doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced or ignore all rationale.
Clearly they made a mistake with the resupply ships having no size limitations and it's led to unintended ship designs that the game isn't programmed to be able to deal with. It's an exploit/loophole which should be "fixed" in the core game for future players.
Like I said already, this kind of cheating should be modded into the game for those that choose to, but not part of the base game. I have no problem with people doing this at all, just from a game development perspective it would seem silly for them to not fix something that is broken in their game.
RE: Ooops, I did it again..
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:18 pm
by Kushan04
Thats awesome Krelos. Personally I think they should keep it in. If DW had multilayer then sure fix it, but since it doesn't its not hurting anyone. But the same people that build monsters like that shouldn't turn around later and complain about the game being to easy either.
Kushan