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With AI control of design and building, I looked at the construction screen to build a few more destroyers for patrolling against monsters, etc. But...no destroyers were listed as buildable. I went to the design screen, found the destroyer design and noted that it was not buildable with current technology because it was 2 points over its weight/mass limit...apparently the AI had added a new technology (IIRC a repair module) that put it over the limit. So I pulled a gun off it and presto, the design was buildable again and appeared on the lists. Should the AI be designing unbuildable ships? Does the AI not look at these same limits and keep to them?

I was thinking this, but then again what roles get decided to always stay under the limit? Personally I think it might be too much of a headache to put definite numbers in, as it will no doubt introduce new problems

Every 4x game I've played where designs included a weight limit so you could not overfill them with components (destroyers the size and capability of battleships, anyone?) had that limit there so the AI and players could not game the design system. After all, why have categories like destroyer and frigate if they are meaningless? So the fact that the AI allows itself to overfill designs, thus making them unbuildable, is a serious game bug IMHO, because the AI is setting itself up to not be able to build certain categories of ships it designs. What happens when construction ships are overweighted in this fashion? Then the AI cannot build them and the player gets an unfair advantage fighting the AI. The player can always overrule a stupid automatic decision like this, but the AI is limited to playing with the rules. If those rules are intrinsically illogical - broken - then this is a defect of game design.

Just ran into another example of this in another game. The AI happily upgrades ships over your current weight/mass build limits, so it now cannot build destroyers (which are the largest ships in the beginning. When you upgrade construction tech, then the limit goes from 200 to 270 and now the AI can again build destroyers. But what if the AI just declared war on you and now it can't beef up its own fleets. Pretty dumb, eh? They need to patch this so the AI does not hobble itself too bad.

If the AI can't build destroyers, it will just make something else. It is not as if the AI designs ships as anything other than amorphous blobcraft with no apparent design goals, anyway, so the absence of destroyers just means you will be mobbed by frigates instead.

You also got to remember, they aren't classes, but roles with each being any size you (or the AI) chooses As you already know, the limit increases with research (whereas in other games, you research new hulls)

However, how do you decide which roles HAVE too stay under the size limit? Without resorting to the old classic style of hull sizes, I see it causing more problems than solving

I posted on this earlier after release, but yes the AI will design ships for a role rather than for a particular shipyard size. If you want a destroyer-size ship within your initial 200 size limit, you can tweak the design yourself to get it below that, or wait for a redesign or a shipyard upgrade to make it possible again.

That's not the official answer is it?  What I hear when you say that is that the AI designing ships is bugged and it's up to us to manually fix it?    I understand the AI designs to roles but the very first designs allow you to build destroyers.  It makes no sense that for a design you start with to all of a sudden not be a design you can build.  You are forcing people to micromanage ship designs.  This may be fine for some people but besides the confusion it causes to begin with, there are plenty of people who are otherwise happy letting the AI manage the ship designs but now have to micromanage this.  And think about the implications to the AI who all of a sudden are devoid of new destroyers (or whatever role happens to be on the threshhold).

ORIGINAL: Fishman

If the AI can't build destroyers, it will just make something else. It is not as if the AI designs ships as anything other than amorphous blobcraft with no apparent design goals, anyway, so the absence of destroyers just means you will be mobbed by frigates instead.

And how do they assault colonies? AFAIK destroyers are the only ships the AI can build in the beginning that have troop compartments (the "troop transports" seem to start off beyond 200 size, which is another issue).

Thanks for backing up my concerns in this area, guys.  I don't think the designers yet see the implications of the issue, particularly towards AI design limitations.  So the AI can't build destroyers and this is not supposed to be a problem?  Maybe it isn't if the AI can build up 200 pt frigates with the same capabilities.  But will it?  I doubt it.  

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

And how do they assault colonies? AFAIK destroyers are the only ships the AI can build in the beginning that have troop compartments (the "troop transports" seem to start off beyond 200 size, which is another issue).

If the biggest thing you can build is size 200, at that point in the game, the answer is "You Don't". Have you actually TRIED to assault a colony with a destroyer? It doesn't work, because your puny one army is insufficient to overcome the defense, and your one destroyer is not going to make it through the orbiting base. As you said yourself, the troop transports are bigger than 200 already, so the AI isn't going to be assaulting any planets until it can build them.

What do you mean "you don't"? It's perfectly viable to assault a colony before you have access to larger ship sizes. For a player, anyway, since apparently the AI can't build the ships to do it as soon as they get one tech level in engines or something. [8|]

I've played a six hour game without unlocking new construction yards. And there's nothing stopping me from building the appropriate ship for any job, including rigged troop transports, regardless of this.

This issue is obviously crippling to the AI if this is the case.

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

What do you mean "you don't"? It's perfectly viable to assault a colony before you have access to larger ship sizes. For a player, anyway, since apparently the AI can't build the ships to do it as soon as they get one tech level in engines or something. [8|]

A player can pull all manner of crazy shenanigans to pull something like this off, though. An AI, obviously, cannot be counted on to make a specialized design purely to pull off a crazy maneuver. In order to create a viable troop transport within 200 size, you need to make some serious design compromises that render it non-viable as a general purpose troop transport for use the way the AI would use a troop transport: The resulting troop transport will be seriously mission-compromised, and be lacking one or more of sufficient shielding to make the drop under fire, sufficient capacity to carry enough to actually take the planet, or sufficient speed to make the drop before it is intercepted and shot down. A human is able to work around these design compromises through carefully selected usage, such as not assaulting heavily defended targets, or clearing the defenses with other specialized craft before assaulting. The AI cannot.

I haven't tried to take over a colony, personally (I just don't play that way), but I have had many of mine taken over by a warring Sluken empire in the early game. From what I could tell, it didn't have any specialized troop-carrying ships (not sure how it would really need them, as I don't defend my colonies at all except for the occasional starbase, so nothing is stopping a handful of destroyers from dropping them off). How many troops does it take to overcome a new colony anyway? I imagine not much... and if you ask me, this strategy should be available to an AI just as much as it is a player. At all times.

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

I haven't tried to take over a colony, personally (I just don't play that way), but I have had many of mine taken over by a warring Sluken empire in the early game. From what I could tell, it didn't have any specialized troop-carrying ships (not sure how it would really need them, as I don't defend my colonies at all except for the occasional starbase, so nothing is stopping a handful of destroyers from dropping them off). How many troops does it take to overcome a new colony anyway?

Well, if your colonies are completely undefended, anyone can take them over. However, the AI will attempt to recruit at least one legion for any planet, and the Sluken are supposed to be tough fighters. Overcoming even a small Sluken colony with your lesser-quality troops is probably going to require a coordinated drop of at least 4 mans.

And while it's fine and good to believe that any strategy should be available to an AI as well, in practice, this is not likely, because strategizing and improvisation is a particularly human attribute that AIs have not mastered. AIs work best in the general case, and hate edge cases, whereas gamers love edge cases. A huge number of game strategies center around discovering some unusual edge case scenario, then using that to lop your opponent's head off. AIs just don't do that.

ORIGINAL: Joram

That's not the official answer is it?  What I hear when you say that is that the AI designing ships is bugged and it's up to us to manually fix it? 

lol I rest my case ^^

edit: well actually no that's probably a lie ^^