Matrix Games Forums

Hi-v1102aa, scen.9, Allies, 8/14/42.

With all respect to Don Bowen, et al, how do I sink any of these pests? As of this game date, 8/14/42, the Allies have sunk the grand total of 2 enemy SS!!. One by depth charge and one by SS torp. Plenty of midgets have bit the seabed- however-mostly due to grounding, mines, nets, etc.

These guys are eating me alive. Contrary to my understanding of Japanese sub doctrine(which I have turned to "on"), they are going after merchants like gangbusters. Is the doctrine different in AE?

My ASW TFs go after them, once in awhile getting ONE hit and not doing much else. (This may be part of the problem, because most of my ASW TFs are non DD types.) My ASW air patrols sight quite a few, but most don't attack.

Has any one had better success and, if so, how did you do it?

Are there better ASW weapons in the AE pipe line? When?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

Hi-v1102aa, scen.9, Allies, 8/14/42.

With all respect to Don Bowen, et al, how do I sink any of these pests? As of this game date, 8/14/42, the Allies have sunk the grand total of 2 enemy SS!!. One by depth charge and one by SS torp. Plenty of midgets have bit the seabed- however-mostly due to grounding, mines, nets, etc.

These guys are eating me alive. Contrary to my understanding of Japanese sub doctrine(which I have turned to "on"), they are going after merchants like gangbusters. Is the doctrine different in AE?

My ASW TFs go after them, once in awhile getting ONE hit and not doing much else. (This may be part of the problem, because most of my ASW TFs are non DD types.) My ASW air patrols sight quite a few, but most don't attack.

Has any one had better success and, if so, how did you do it?

Are there better ASW weapons in the AE pipe line? When?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

If you get a sighting, smother it! During Dec 8/9, 1941 of my current game, I think I got seven hits on subs, mostly around Pearl, but it was a target-rich environment, and I was going after them aggressively with planes and ASW TFs.

A probable factor is the experience of both your pilots and ship crews. That will improve with time. Another factor is the commanders, try and select Captains and Commanders that have high aggression and naval skill. Use your aircraft to get sighting and then as Herwin says smother them. It is also useful to preposition ASW forces at natural choke points and along approach routes to your ports.

Later you will receive some lethal SCs/DEs etc... but again you need train them up at sea before they do much. Good luck.

Train, train and train your pilots and ASW ships and TFs. You won't get many actual positive results until the pilots have experience in ASW skills in the 70s and 80s... Your ASW ships often have terrible experience too and it'll take a minimum of 6 months at sea for that to change.

So, for the first 6 months just ignore the SS and take your lumps. Squadrons flying ASW missions can keep the submarines under the surface and that can reduce your losses somewhat but, overall, you just have to take it until your experience increases until your normal operations can begin to get kills instead of just fruitless prosecutions.

This may be part of the problem, because most of my ASW TFs are non DD types.)

This is one of your problem. I use non DD TF's close to ports. They dont sink any subs but do keep their heads down. I use DD's when subs are spotted. As others have said, once the exp gets up there, you start sinking the buggers. Some of the DD upgrades really improve their ASW capability with more DC and radar. I am in 7/44 in one PBEM and have driven the Jap subs into ports-what few, if any are left.

Agreed, good tips here.

use 60+ naval search out to about 5 hexes to find enemy subs. Attack with 60+ expereince ASW units from a few thousand feet. Use multiple overlapping ASW patrols with 4ships in the area. Spotting level is very important to success, so your naval search is key. Also, until your DD / AM types upgrade, you will be less successful than when they upgrade. By May 42 you will begin to have the upper hand. expect losses in your asw units early on.

For transport, cargo, and tanker convoys, put at least one escort in each main force to prevent attacks from the surface, and vary your embarkation ports, and use waypoints to vary you entry and exits into ports. dont take the same way twice in a row, and definately avoid where you have spotted enemy subs if you you think their position is fixed rather than patrolling. I estimate that spending time on this mundain part of the war will save perhaps a hundred allied ships from damage or sinking in the first year alone

In any event, you are going to lose and have damaged ships of all types through the entire game. These tips will limit the losses where they occur most.

Make sure that the reaction range is set to 6.  I wasn't getting many ASW attacks until I started doing this.  Once I did, they started reacting and attacking a lot.

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

Hi-v1102aa, scen.9, Allies, 8/14/42.

With all respect to Don Bowen, et al, how do I sink any of these pests? As of this game date, 8/14/42, the Allies have sunk the grand total of 2 enemy SS!!. One by depth charge and one by SS torp. Plenty of midgets have bit the seabed- however-mostly due to grounding, mines, nets, etc.

These guys are eating me alive. Contrary to my understanding of Japanese sub doctrine(which I have turned to "on"), they are going after merchants like gangbusters. Is the doctrine different in AE?

My ASW TFs go after them, once in awhile getting ONE hit and not doing much else. (This may be part of the problem, because most of my ASW TFs are non DD types.) My ASW air patrols sight quite a few, but most don't attack.

Has any one had better success and, if so, how did you do it?

Are there better ASW weapons in the AE pipe line? When?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

Better assets are in the pipeline. But in the meantime, train a few air units in ASW to 60 as a start to suppressing the subs to begin with.

Train subsequent air units in search, ASW, and naval bombing to 60.

Micro-management of air unit commanders and pilots will pay off if you are diligent. Develop a plan and keep an eye on the results of your plan. Be prepared to change your plan based on what you learn.

Once your plan is working, it's handy to move high skill rookies into units with experience, while removing the high experience pilots that don't seem to gain skill. Take units off line to train them in new skills while the rookies build experience. The vets will build new skills where they are deficient, regardless of their experience level -- but only when they are training.

Have a few teaching units that are only about training one skill at a time. So all your good searchers go into a unit learning ASW or naval bombing, and so on, depending on your priorities and lessons learned.

Sometimes it is easier to start with rookies, or single skill pilots of your choice, rather than the mixed bag the computer gives you when a new air unit enters. So don't be afraid to dump the pilots that come with the air unit as it enters, and assign pilots according to your plan. It can take a while for all of the pilots to show up at their new assignment, but I think it works out better in the long run.

Put together ASW naval forces with a rating of 4 or better and keep them on the water. In many cases they don't really have much other use than to be expendable. Australian AM's seem to be particularly expendable compared to the Commonwealth KV's -- for example. Check the TF commander and change as necessary at the vessel level rather than letting the computer pick your TF commander and fiddling with that choice.

Find routes where his sub aren't, or escort.

Don't forget to convert as many of the old four pipers to DEs as you can afford (some you will want to convert to APDs). This conversion is available in 4/42 and 5/42 (depending upon the class) and upgrades their ASW rating to an 8. 

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Don't forget to convert as many of the old four pipers to DEs as you can afford (some you will want to convert to APDs). This conversion is available in 4/42 and 5/42 (depending upon the class) and upgrades their ASW rating to an 8. 

A warning about that. I converted all of mine to DEs as I was getting pounded early in the game by Japanese subs. Now I regret it as the APDs are more valuable than the DEs. Because by mid 42 you will have enough ASW assets with or without the DEs, but can never have enough APDs [:@] But I will say, the DEs have been a big help. I just wish I had converted to APDs instead...

British DDs have excellent ASW numbers (usually 8) and have fairly good exp to boot. I make up a few ASW DD forces using British DDs. Change out all the captains for high quality ones. By late 42 you can spare the ships to make up four or five high quality ASW groups. Then send them to where you expect Japanese subs.

Send a few subs with mines to lay mines in the random harbor or choke point where you expect Japanese subs to transit. I have gotten a few with mines.

If your opponent likes to park subs in your ports. A common tactic. Then take two or three bomber or patrol squadrons and set them on 100% ASW with range set to zero. If there is a sub in the hex, they will attack it like crazy. Then put your ASW killer group one hex out of the port with reaction set. The bombers will raise the detection level of the sub to the highest and your killer ASW TF will react into the sub and have a very good attack.

If you think you have crippled a sub, follow it up. Try to guess where it is headed. (usually nearest safe port) and flood the spot you think it will be with ASW. I have not lost many Allied subs but three times in my two campaigns I have had my own crippled subs run down on the surface at night and sunk with gunfire.

Combined arms warfare....

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

Hi-v1102aa, scen.9, Allies, 8/14/42.

With all respect to Don Bowen, et al, how do I sink any of these pests? As of this game date, 8/14/42, the Allies have sunk the grand total of 2 enemy SS!!. One by depth charge and one by SS torp. Plenty of midgets have bit the seabed- however-mostly due to grounding, mines, nets, etc.

These guys are eating me alive. Contrary to my understanding of Japanese sub doctrine(which I have turned to "on"), they are going after merchants like gangbusters. Is the doctrine different in AE?

My ASW TFs go after them, once in awhile getting ONE hit and not doing much else. (This may be part of the problem, because most of my ASW TFs are non DD types.) My ASW air patrols sight quite a few, but most don't attack.

Has any one had better success and, if so, how did you do it?

Are there better ASW weapons in the AE pipe line? When?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

All I say is: BRITISH destroyers...

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Don't forget to convert as many of the old four pipers to DEs as you can afford (some you will want to convert to APDs). This conversion is available in 4/42 and 5/42 (depending upon the class) and upgrades their ASW rating to an 8. 

A warning about that. I converted all of mine to DEs as I was getting pounded early in the game by Japanese subs. Now I regret it as the APDs are more valuable than the DEs. Because by mid 42 you will have enough ASW assets with or without the DEs, but can never have enough APDs [:@] But I will say, the DEs have been a big help. I just wish I had converted to APDs instead...

me too... [:(] I only had the original 7 or 8? APDs and most of them went down when I was hit by the fast transport bug and KB parking nearby.

Hi-I want to thank all who have responded to this post.

I don't know if you realize it or not, but IMHO you have written "the book" on ASW for AE, for the Allies.

Again, thanks to all. Hugh Browne

Here I was about to convert a ton of destroyers to DE's heh, a timely bit of info about how valuable APD's are. Thank you all.

It's too bad you can't simply reconvert again later down the road. Change to DE, and then a year later change them to APD.

Dont forget that early in the war you can use your CVs to patrol your transit lanes. If you are not using them to attack with set all of the DBs and TBs to 100% ASW and run them where you want to move cargo/transport ships. Combine with a couple of 2 ship DD ASW TFs and hunt away. You should get enough sightings to really raise the DL of the subs and then the DDs have a good chance of attacking them.

If my carriers arn't conducting Air Ops, I'm using their airgroups for training heh. There's not enough carrier navy air units early war to spend them on ASW. Could fill a carrier with marine dive bombers for that purpose though I suppose.

ORIGINAL: Sredni

Here I was about to convert a ton of destroyers to DE's heh, a timely bit of info about how valuable APD's are. Thank you all.

It's too bad you can't simply reconvert again later down the road. Change to DE, and then a year later change them to APD.

Well, by mid 43 you start to get a lot of APDs as reinforcments.

I tried Nunya D's solution; changing my 2 DD ASW tf's to a reaction factor of 6.
Hot damm! I was chasin' Nip sub butt all over the SW Pacific!
+1 for you Nunya!