Matrix Games Forums

Just finished a PBEM game that ended Oct 43 with a Japanese unconditional surrender, despite the fact that the Allies had only advanced as far as Truk. The Japanese sunk the Essex and the combat screen came up with "Lexington Class CV sunk". Duh, there was no such thing. The air combat routines are abysmal. The Hiryu took over 200 hits from 16 inch guns before she sank. What were these 16 inch guns hitting? After 200 hits, there would be nothing above the water to hit.
Thanks to Matrix for taking a decent game and turning it into a overwhelming piece of dog dung. I'm hoping that some Clorox bleach will get the stench of this, off of my hard drive.

Hi,

Could you tell me the score breakdown for your PBEM file? I think that the Allies managed to get the 2 to 1 score value in 1943, which can be achieved even if the allies advance no further then Guadalcanal! It all depends on how much one side loses when compared to another. In the latest (to be released) 3.0 version, the value of bases have been increased by approximately 50%, so control of bases will be more important then just kills.

Actually, things like air combat routines, along with the fact that some ships will take 1000's of hits before they sink have been with the game since its inception in 1992, 10 years ago!

Thank you for your positive and constructive input!

Jeremy

two quick comments here:

1. there was Lexington class, consisting of Lady Lex and Saratoga.

2. It was not unusual for ships to continually fire on a ship that was going to sink. How do you tell a ship is going to sink?? until it actually does sink it is still a target.

That would be incorrect as the the Lexington was actually a Yorktown Class, but I can understand your confusion, since you frequent this realm of unreality. I just bounced in to voice my opinion of this travesty, and will now will be leaving again. Thank you for playing.

Errr, the first Lexington CV was a Lexington class CV and there was also an Essex class USS Lexington. The "Yorktown" class was the Enterprise, Yorktown and Hornet... so thank YOU for playing.

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard
Hi,

Could you tell me the score breakdown for your PBEM file? I think that the Allies managed to get the 2 to 1 score value in 1943, which can be achieved even if the allies advance no further then Guadalcanal! It all depends on how much one side loses when compared to another. In the latest (to be released) 3.0 version, the value of bases have been increased by approximately 50%, so control of bases will be more important then just kills.

Actually, things like air combat routines, along with the fact that some ships will take 1000's of hits before they sink have been with the game since its inception in 1992, 10 years ago!

Thank you for your positive and constructive input!

Jeremy

Obviously you have miscontrued or misread my post, since 16 inch guns do not reside on aircraft. But then, once again Matrix does not seem to dwell in reality. I have studied the Pacific Theatre since the late 60's and at no time have I come across any reference to aircraft that used 16 inch guns. Nor have I come across any reference to ships taking thousands of hits in a single combat and surviving.
Once again, I thank you for taking a decent game and turning it into something that no one (that can actually get a human opponent) wants to play.
I now return you to your regular unrealistic programming.

What a friendly poster.

Thanks to Don Shafer, we now know that there are no 16 inch guns on planes

I now feel smarter

Spooky

The Original Poster's information is a bit incomplete, but emotions can do that to you. I guess it would help to know which side he was playing, I'm guessing He was Japan.

"The Japanese sunk the Essex and the combat screen came up with "Lexington Class CV sunk". Duh, there was no such thing".

He is right on that point, there was no Essex in the Lexington class.

Lexington Class:
CV-2 Lexington
CV-3 Saratoga

If the poster was IJN, then it was either Fog of war, or there was a Lexington class CV involved in the engagement. Or a crossed wire.

"The Hiryu took over 200 hits from 16 inch guns before she sank. What were these 16 inch guns hitting?"

Flotsam and Jetsam? A 16" gun would be a Naval weapon, so I'm thinking Hiryu was caught by a surface combat TF. In all the time I've played PacWar (since I bought it in 1994 I think), there were only screens to tell me how many hits ships took. One was during the acutal action, with no tally, just a ship to ship as it happened. The other was after action, without a shell caliber breakout. I'm wondering where he saw this.

FYI-

Yorktown Class:
CV-5 Yorktown
CV-6 Enterprise
CV-8 Hornet

Wasp Class:
CV-7 Wasp

Essex (CV-9) Class Renamed Vessels:
CV-10 Yorktown
CV-16 Lexington
CV-12 Hornet
CV-18 Wasp

actually I think the poster was using the thread subject to identify himself.


although moron would have been better.

Historically, there were many ships that sank with very few hits; while there are examples of ships taking HUNDREDS of shells before it sank.

Example: The Bismarck. Over 2000 shells were fired at it, with 400 actually hitting it before it sank. . .

Reality can be soooo unreal. . .

Actually, you misread my post. I never mentioned anything about aircraft using 16" guns, or did I even say anything about aircraft, or 16" guns in my post. Peculiar that you would make such a deal about something I didn't say. You never said that the Hiryu was attacked either by surface or air, so maybe your next posts could be a bit clearer so instead of ranting, we can solve your problems.

To restate my remark, it was NOT Matrix that added the 1000 hits to sink a ship thing, but was with the game since 1992, so how are we to blame for that? Matrix wasn't even around then!

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard
Actually, you misread my post. I never mentioned anything about aircraft using 16" guns, or did I even say anything about aircraft, or 16" guns in my post. Peculiar that you would make such a deal about something I didn't say. You never said that the Hiryu was attacked either by surface or air, so maybe your next posts could be a bit clearer so instead of ranting, we can solve your problems.
!

Jeremy,

Without a PhD in psychology there is not much you can do for Don, just look at his signature. Whatever his problem is it seems to be getting worse.

Svar

PS Just downloaded 3.0 and it looks very interesting. It appears that the problem with the British LSI's are solved.

Trivial reply: Before they could test and produce proper AP bombs, the Japanese actually converted some battleship shells to be used as AP ordnance for their dive-bombers. So although no planes were armed with 16-inch guns, it would have been theoretically possible for a ship under Japanese air attack to be hit with 16-inch shells.

More significant reply: I had thought that the original PacWar code assumed that every hit did a base of 1% damage, with additional damage determined by warhead size, penetration, and so on. Thus there were some complaints (on the original PacWar BBS) that no ship could withstand more than 100 hits of any size. Has that been changed?

Whoa! Its Captain Harlock!!!



Though I thought Leader Desslock was cooler.

I am curious (no, wierd!) - who was the poor sod on the the other end of that PBEM game?

Originally posted by Howling H R Bryars
I am curious (no, wierd!) - who was the poor sod on the the other end of that PBEM game?

Just had to say this comment made me laugh! I wonder if the poster in question is a Talonsoft employee????

Imagine my surprise as I stumbled into a thread detailing the game I was playing as the Allies against Don. I went back to do the research and here are the details as far as I can tell.

The battle in question was at Saipan in mid-October. I misinformed Don as to the U.S. aircraft carrier sunk which turned out to be the Saratoga. A Lexington class ship as he had originally claimed. Sorry Don.

The Hiryu was another story all together. First the Hiryu was hit by naval air which appeared to seriously damage her. The task force the Hiryu was in was then attacked by two different battleship groups. Hiryu was hit by one salvo of 16 inch guns and several times by 8 inch guns from the cruisers. Her escort, including a Japanese battleship, was largely overwhelmed and sunk. She survived the battles but succumbed to damage later that turn.

The game ended the last week of October 1943. Scores as follows:
Japanese Kills 22574
Japanese Control 17310
Japanese Production 3432*
Japanese Total 43316

Allied Kills 46538
Allied Control 24720
Allied Production 15830
Allied Total 87088

Don played to the very end, was consistent and good natured for which I am thankful. I can understand some complaining when things go bad.

Anybody up for a game?

In 3.0 the control points have been drastically increased from the 2.3 total of around 40 000 to a 3.0 total of around 80 000, basically doubling the value of controlling bases.

If the Japanese secure their historic bases, they manage to gain control of 50% of the control points. With most of the valueable territory being the East Indies, they should be able to sustain larger casualty rates without being forced to surrender.

Had you guys played with 3.0 your total for December 1943 would be...

Japanese Kills 22574
Japanese Control 40000 (17310 old)
Japanese Production 3432*
Japanese Total 66000

Allied Kills 46538
Allied Control 40000 (24720 old)
Allied Production 15830
Allied Total 102000

Sure, total allied points would be higher, but so too would the Japanese, and you would also notice that the Allies would not have the 2:1 point ratio to win.

Pacific War has always had trouble dealing with aircraft carriers not sinking. Many have taken repeatedly more then the supposed 100 maximum hits to sink. Nobody has ever come up with a reason for it.

I understand that he did stick out your game, but attacking Matrix for creating a FREE game, just because he lost, is not fair to us who spent a lot of our free time on this project, especially before we even had time to explain.