Matrix Games Forums

Now it's been out for awhile and I expect we've all had a fair mount of time spent playing, what are your assessments of the game?

I'm still a little undecided. However I have a feeling I'm expecting far more than is able to be done with PC's at the moment. I want to see it perfectly replicate combat in WW2 at this scale and just maybe that isn't possible at the moment. This is a groundbreaking game granted but I have a feeling it will be awhile before it works the way we all want it to work out. I supose it's like the Wright Brothers plane...it has the core elements for flight but it isn't a jet. Anything groundbreaking starts of basic and improves overtime. The game has improved alot since RDoA and also with each succesive game but it still as abit to goand I'm sure with each new iteration Panther Games will get there. However I believe it is going to take a few more titles at least, and then we will get the perfect combat simulator at this scale.

All computer games are abstractions, this one abstracts at a higher level of fidelity than any others at this level.

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

All computer games are abstractions, this one abstracts at a higher level of fidelity than any others at this level.

Funny you should say that because I would have thought this game was one of those that didn't abstract as much as the others. Thast why I enjoy it so much. Step losses and abstract unit power always leave me cold...thats why I'm looking forward to WitE.

I like the game. It is enjoyable and quite a challenge. Repeated play of the scenarios is rewarding, my initial attempts on the German side were not successful. However now I seem to have grasped some game play concepts and I get better results. I guess that's what's needed for a game. On the simulation side there seem be to some quirks, like the HQ playing advance guard, but in general it is very successful in make believe that I'm in command.

I think FN said it pretty well. Within the restraints of modern technology many aspects of operational warfare must still be abstracted. Take retreats in CO:BFTB for instance. When we see a unit retreating and then returning to it's former position we tend to think of that as an unrealistic behavior. But within the game mechanics, it allows the opportunity for the attacking AI to move into the location recently abandoned by the defender, or continue on the road with the threat removed temporarily. Sort of a D-Back 2; A advance 1 if you will. I'm not sure that's what Panther intended, but it works for me.

Armor is a difficult one, and some people are sensing that the game isn't representing it well enough. The jury is still out for me on this one. Tanks on the offensive were not that effective in the Ardennes winter and I want to test this out a bit more on an open playing field.

I think older wargamers and boardgamers are able to grasp abstraction and rationalize some 'questionable' game mechanics better than others.

Imagintion is the key I think....I can pass off all apparent unusual behaviour with abit of imagination...I see my pixeltruppen on that battlefield and the counter being an approximation of where the bulk of the force is...that way minor retreats etc can be passed off...some troops in the centre are pulling out hance the counter moves back...then Pixeltruppen Steiner or as the otherside Pixeltrooper A Murphy kicks their ass back to the counter attack...hance the counter shifts forward to the previous position.

I've played the tutoral a couple of times but I'm a bit reluctant to play any scenarios until the patch is released, I can live with the timed assault bug but is the sighting bug mentioned in the armour thread a show stopper?

There are no real showstoppers...however I imagine the Kar98 have 0% reliability being a big problem...this could mean your German troops have no main infantry weapon.

With the exception of the tutorial,Im finding the ai is kicking my ass.Started the scenario "Final Jump" and am finding 1 US coy is able to hold up and make retreat several of mine.I dont know what I am doing wrong.

ORIGINAL: wodin

There are no real showstoppers...however I imagine the Kar98 have 0% reliability being a big problem...this could mean your German troops have no main infantry weapon.

Not so - Dave checked the code and it turns out that the reliability factor was not being taken into account. It is my understanding that it will be switched on, and we have edited all the weapons to ensure each has reasonably logical values for the patch.

I can only say that I haven't enjoyed any game this much in a long while.  In my humble opinion, the best games of any kind are ones which are simple to grasp but very difficult to master.  Given what it attempts to model, the UI and orders system in BftB is about as "simple" as possible once you get used to it, but I love the feeling that I've only begun to scratch the surface.  Watching the clock tick along through day and night as the battle unfolds builds suspense and immersion. 

I'm having a blast.  If the mod community responds and quality scenarios start cropping up, I can see this staying on my hard drive for a long time to come.

ORIGINAL: simovitch

ORIGINAL: wodin

There are no real showstoppers...however I imagine the Kar98 have 0% reliability being a big problem...this could mean your German troops have no main infantry weapon.

Not so - Dave checked the code and it turns out that the reliability factor was not being taken into account. It is my understanding that it will be switched on, and we have edited all the weapons to ensure each has reasonably logical values for the patch.

Excellent...though in eight out of eight review (the game got 8/8 by the way) he mentions that he doesn't really know if all that is mentioned in the weapons etc is really taken into account or not...I thought I hope to god it is and I'm sure it will be...now I'm not to sure...is there anything else not switched on or just there for effect? I hope not.

Here's some screens from the start,yellow with x shows some initial objectives

Now 3 hours later 1 or 2 US coys holding off 6-8 German coys,what am I doing wrong?

i think part of my problem is,once i make initial moves I dont pause and run game on fast speed.I feel this more accuratly represents an actual battle and having to make split second decisions.

Interesting perspective as real battles run at real world speeds, but, of course, human perception may distort the passing of time.

If anything, I find when in contact, I tend to play at the slowest speed trying to get a sense of when conditions are changing. In fact, one of the most important skills is learning to realize when plans need to change and new orders need to be issued. I've refered to these in guides as "junctures" and Dave talks about "triggers" which will initiate revised orders. And, of course, there's the OODA loop.

I tend to crank up the speed if no contact is made, or it's night and nothing is going on, or I've clearly won or lost and there is nothing to do but run down the clock.

Also, whenever I give orders, I usually have in my mind a certain time when I expect my underlying assumptions to pan out or otherwise, I should revisit my assumptions. In TBS games, turns and the clock/calendar serves as a frame by which the situation and actions are reviewed. In this series, the frames are variable and there are often multiple overlapping concurrent frames based on different forces and areas of the map.

I used to play sub sims and hang out at www.subsim.com. There were always some people who would play realtime patrols (no time compression). Nothing like standing watch for 2-3 hours and having nothing happen; repeat that for a year. Another extreme ...

Okay, enough rambling for now. (maybe this is what happens when I am not building a tips thread)

ORIGINAL: wodin
Excellent...though in eight out of eight review (the game got 8/8 by the way) he mentions that he doesn't really know if all that is mentioned in the weapons etc is really taken into account or not

This was pure speculation on my part. I was just wondering out loud how much of that detailed weapons statistics was really taken into account when calculating battle results.

I just started Elsenborn Ridge scenario.I have started pausing this time and am having a lot more success.

Aside from the crash I had without autosave on my first try and a little crying because I was winning, I really enjoy this game. It is a lot of fun and fast paced. Wading into the details now.

Whoo hooo !!!!

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF

ORIGINAL: wodin
Excellent...though in eight out of eight review (the game got 8/8 by the way) he mentions that he doesn't really know if all that is mentioned in the weapons etc is really taken into account or not

This was pure speculation on my part. I was just wondering out loud how much of that detailed weapons statistics was really taken into account when calculating battle results.

Yes, I know it was, but with the reliability being turned off you were actually right in your assumption to a point. I wonder how many other things are taken into account or not.