Matrix Games Forums

Hi guys,

i'm playing the case white-scenario and i'm wondering that i have only 2 recon-corps (air). i ve to use all of my air-corps (bomber, stuka) to recon a few frontlines. i think this isn't very realistic.. we need more recon-planes or another recon logic.

*hafer

I end up using my Engineers for recon, which is not very historical.

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

I end up using my Engineers for recon, which is not very historical.

I do this too. I agree that it is not historical.

Maybe a partial solution for this issue is to decrease the chance of ambush for "combat" units (infantry, armor, & cavalry) and increase the chance of ambush for "non-combat" units (artillery, engineers, etc.).

ORIGINAL: hafer

i'm playing the case white-scenario and i'm wondering that i have only 2 recon-corps (air). i ve to use all of my air-corps (bomber, stuka) to recon a few frontlines. i think this isn't very realistic.. we need more recon-planes or another recon logic.

I support "another recon logic". Provide the player the ability to focus intelligence collection in 1-3 areas (or some other number derived from a situationally-based operational logic) without affecting the availability of any tactical air forces. Click on a hex and then receive some level of intelligence within 4-5 hexes of the selected point.

I like the idea of engineer units (especially the ones in trucks) being more susceptible to ambush, but I have actually never had one of my infantry formations ambushed and I think I have only had one damaged tank unit ambushed in all my games.

I don't know if you guys have played with air recon much (the interface for it is kind of clunky with having to find the air unit first instead of just being able to pick the hex you want reconed), but you can actually fly two full range air recon missions with each air unit and you get visibility within three hexes of the targeted hex. This is actually quite a bit and is too large in my opinion. What I would do is change the range of air recon visibility to less than three hexes allow you more recon missions per air unit. Having a visibility of two hexes and giving each air recon unit four recons would give you almost exactly the same number of hexes reconned as is currently the case (74 for 2 targets by three hexes and 76 for 4 targets by two hexes). However, I would adjust the visibility of air recon down to within just one hex of the target hex and allow each air recon unit 8 recons per turn. This is less than the total number of hexes you can currently recon ( 56 vs. 74), but it gives you more target hexes and 10 or 11 recons (giving you 70 and 77 hexes reconned respectively) seems to be a little too many.

And just so everybody knows what I am talking about here, the air units that end in /R are your air recon units.

I feel the recon points in the game are actually a great idea to model the integral recon elements in each unit. However, I ran some tests and it seemed that an infantry Battalion actually has more recon points in surrounding hexes than the mechanized units do. I will run some more tests, but if that really is the case, the mechanized units need more recon points.

So what I would change is as follows:

1) Change air recon to a visibility of one hex from the target hex and allow each air recon unit to fly up to eight recon missions per turn (although I could be convinced to go as high as 10). The air recon function also desperately needs to be changed as Borsook requested in the Feature Suggestion List thread, item #30, where you can use air recon by picking the hex you want reconed instead of having to hunt down the air unit first and then selecting the hex.

2) Decrease the recon points of truck mounted units that aren't infantry (e.g. Engineers, Artillery, Flack, etc.) to something less than an equivalent truck mounted infantry unit would have because these units don't include integral recon assets. Giving these units 1/3 to 1/2 of the recon of an equivalent truck mounted infantry unit is probably about right. Also increase the damage done to these units if they suffer a surprise attack during movement. Double the damage it currently is for a surprise attack would probably be about right.

And perhaps tweak the recon points for each unit as well.

I ran some tests and these are the recon values for some full strength German units in the Poland Scenario. The unit is listed first and then the recon values one hex away, two hexes away, etc.

1) German Infantry Battalion:50,12,2,0
2) German Motorized Infantry Battalion:64,16,3,1,0
3) German Panzer Battalion:41,10,2,0
4) German Pioneers:20,5,1,0
5) German Artillery Battalion (Divisional and Corps): 21,5,1
6) German Flak:11,3,1
7) German HQ unit (No trains):21,5,1

These actually aren't bad in my opinion, although I would probably increase the Panzer Battalion to something like 57,15,2,1. I would also decrease the Pioneers to something like 15,2,0 to keep them from being used as scouts, and I would decrease the Artillery and Flak Battalions to something like 10,1,0 because those troops would not have the experience in patrolling that front line units had and they didn't have any integral recon elements.

Now if you wanted to include individual Divisional Reconnaissance Battalions in the game you could do that instead of giving each individual unit as many recon points as it currently has, but after some reflection, I think the game handles reconnaissance pretty well and think it just needs a few tweaks as I have stated in this post and the previous post.

I'm not saying the system should not be tweaked but I have no problems with recon. Even if there is no air recon to use units do it well enough, one just have to remember to move in steps not at once to the furthest location possible to avoid ambushes.

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

I ran some tests and these are the recon values for some full strength German units in the Poland Scenario.

How can I determine the recon values of a unit?

I loaded the Case White scenario with both sides as human. Then I moved units around so that I could isolate certain units in remote areas of the map. Clicking on a hex then shows the recon value for that hex, which since there was no other nearby units, was exclusively do to the unit I was testing. However, I also found out that you have a recon of 2 in all your controlled hexes even if there was no units nearby, so you have to subtract 2 from the number shown at the top right of the screen under Rec to get the actual recon value of the unit if you are in friendly territory.

The values I gave above only apply to the Case White scenario, as it is the only one with 10 km/hex. I don't know if those values are the same for the smaller 5 km/hex scenarios or not.

Ah! That's very clever. Thanks!

ORIGINAL: Borsook

I'm not saying the system should not be tweaked but I have no problems with recon. Even if there is no air recon to use units do it well enough, one just have to remember to move in steps not at once to the furthest location possible to avoid ambushes.

That's how I've been doing it.

While it might be okay to add some small Corps or Army level dedicated recon units, it would likely be far too much work considering revisiting all the scenarios not to mention adding their use to the AI's routines. I can manage as-is. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Borsook

...one just have to remember to move in steps not at once to the furthest location possible to avoid ambushes.

I do this too...but...maybe this game mechanic should be re-looked.

The drag-and-drop method versus the tedium of hex-by-hex movement should result in exactly the same number of ambush opportunities. Why punish the player for wanting to play the game as quick as he can? Why force him to click-click-click-click-click to avoid an ambush? It's an operational level game.

ORIGINAL: bcgames

ORIGINAL: Borsook

...one just have to remember to move in steps not at once to the furthest location possible to avoid ambushes.

I do this too...but...maybe this game mechanic should be re-looked.

The drag-and-drop method versus the tedium of hex-by-hex movement should result in exactly the same number of ambush opportunities. Why punish the player for wanting to play the game as quick as he can? Why force him to click-click-click-click-click to avoid an ambush? It's an operational level game.

I guess that such way of moving does properly represent cautious movement, while just clicking on the far away target is like ordering the troops to move without any heed to what's out there... True this could be reworked by I'm afraid what any serious changes will do to the AI. Next DC perhaps?

Hope springs eternal.