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US Para Rgt
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:12 pm
by Chris21wen
I've just dropped the 503rd on Wau, everthing went fine except for the 3 US Cbombat Eng Sqd which won't. Seems there are not transportable by plane.
Seems pointless to have para units if part of the unit can't be dropped as paras. This has really annoyed so what the logic behind it or is it an oversite?
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:18 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: Chris H
I've just dropped the 503rd on Wau, everthing went fine except for the 3 US Cbombat Eng Sqd which won't. Seems there are not transportable by plane.
Seems pointless to have para units if part of the unit can't be dropped as paras. This has really annoyed so what the logic behind it or is it an oversite?
It's very hard to make all the details realistic, and I'm not sure you want too much realism--you might not be able to figure out why things happened. The combat environment is one of those things like the brain where you really can't grasp how things happen.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:26 pm
by jrcar
Chris what transports did you use?
I'm pretty sure I have done it fine with C-47/DC2/3's... I'll try and check my turn files on my other computer.
Cheers
Rob
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:33 am
by michaelm75au
The load cost of the US Combat Engineer is 10 (from scen #1). This can't be dropped by plane for 2 reasons; only squads or non-squads of load cost 6 or less. This was from the original stock and the only bug fixes were made to the original code.
However they can be moved to that base once the base/AF is secured.
[restrictions for moving are non-squad or non-engineer devices with a load cost of 8 or less.]
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:01 am
by jrcar
Yep checked, the unit took the base then the engineers flew in once the base was mine.
Cheers
Rob
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:26 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: Chris H
I've just dropped the 503rd on Wau, everthing went fine except for the 3 US Cbombat Eng Sqd which won't. Seems there are not transportable by plane.
Seems pointless to have para units if part of the unit can't be dropped as paras. This has really annoyed so what the logic behind it or is it an oversite?
I have airlifted all US paras several times, every time with the engineers. According to michaelm´s post this shouldn´t be possible and this is also what happens in Chris´ example so I wonder why it works just perfectly in my PBEM?
edit: sorry, misread michaelm´s post. Thought they weren´t "air transportable" while you just can´t drop them. Could be that I flew them in later, even though I can´t really remember doing that in an extra turn all the time. [&:] Which makes me even more wonder as I usually took dot bases with the paras so flying them in without dropping them wouldn´t work at a dot base.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:53 am
by michaelm75au
Would work if you used float planes like Catalina.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:05 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: michaelm
Would work if you used float planes like Catalina.
hmm, I didn´t. Always used C-47 (USAAF and USMC). [&:] Will have a closer look next time I take a dot base but so far I´ve always had everything where I wanted it.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:17 pm
by witpqs
I'm 99% sure they flew in for me too. Next time I'll check, but IIRC I did check to see that all of the unit made it in for the assault turn.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:39 pm
by michaelm75au
I just tried dropping the 1st USMC Parachute Bn unit on a dot base using a C-47 group. The Para squads with some support and MMG squads dropped and captured the 'dot' base. But the C-47 group changed to Supply missions after dropping these squads. The heavy guns and Engineers stayed at the original base.
I could however move them using the Catalinas.
Doing the same thing but using the Cats to begin with, the 'dot' base was captured and the Cats moved in the remainder of the battalion before switching to Supply.
[EDIT]
Tried this again, and the C-47 group moved the remainder of battalion to the 'dot' base. This shouldn't be allowed, but the code is not checking the SIZE of the AF before it moved the devices.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:14 pm
by witpqs
I didn't think the USMC para Bns had any heavy guns?
Anyway, I never realized that combat engineer squads were not intended to be para-dropped. I guess I don't understand why not - weren't they organic to some para units so that they could be dropped?
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:17 pm
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: michaelm
I just tried dropping the 1st USMC Parachute Bn unit on a dot base using a C-47 group. The Para squads with some support and MMG squads dropped and captured the 'dot' base. But the C-47 group changed to Supply missions after dropping these squads. The heavy guns and Engineers stayed at the original base.
I could however move them using the Catalinas.
Doing the same thing but using the Cats to begin with, the 'dot' base was captured and the Cats moved in the remainder of the battalion before switching to Supply.
[EDIT]
Tried this again, and the C-47 group moved the remainder of battalion to the 'dot' base. This shouldn't be allowed, but the code is not checking the SIZE of the AF before it moved the devices.
have you tried it with a couple of squadrons at the same time? I usually use some 60-70 C-47 per unit with some of them automatically dropping supplies (all ordered to carry troops) and the rest is dropping the paras. Then everything is where I want it to be. If this doesn´t work for you then I don´t know what I´m doing different. Anyway, am going to check that next time to provide a safe or at least comment on it if it also isn´t working.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:21 pm
by witpqs
Come to think of it, I remember their being discussion a long while back with developers on the forum about making sure that everything that was actually "droppable" (my word [:D]) was droppable in the game.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:33 pm
by michaelm75au
ORIGINAL: witpqs
Come to think of it, I remember their being discussion a long while back with developers on the forum about making sure that everything that was actually "droppable" (my word [:D]) was droppable in the game.
Originally, I was going to set an attribute to indicate if a device could be air-dropped or air-transported. But this missed the original design and I never followed it up. This would have bypassed the question of 'is it too big?'. [:D]
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:34 pm
by michaelm75au
ORIGINAL: witpqs
I didn't think the USMC para Bns had any heavy guns?
Anyway, I never realized that combat engineer squads were not intended to be para-dropped. I guess I don't understand why not - weren't they organic to some para units so that they could be dropped?
75mm pack howitzer guns
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:42 pm
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: michaelm
ORIGINAL: witpqs
I didn't think the USMC para Bns had any heavy guns?
Anyway, I never realized that combat engineer squads were not intended to be para-dropped. I guess I don't understand why not - weren't they organic to some para units so that they could be dropped?
75mm pack howitzer guns
hmm, that´s the next thing that makes me [&:] I have used my paras quite a lot already being in late 43 but can´t remember ever having seen them with these guns.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:07 pm
by Chris21wen
ORIGINAL: michaelm
ORIGINAL: witpqs
I didn't think the USMC para Bns had any heavy guns?
Anyway, I never realized that combat engineer squads were not intended to be para-dropped. I guess I don't understand why not - weren't they organic to some para units so that they could be dropped?
75mm pack howitzer guns
In 42 a US Para Rgt consists of
57 x Para Sqd - load 10 each
3 x Cmbt Eng - load 10 each
12 x 81mm mtr - load 4 each
58 x Support - load 10 each
In 44 they also get
8 x HMG - load 5 each
and support is increased to 61
Info taken from tracker.
ORIGINAL: michaelm
The load cost of the US Combat Engineer is 10 (from scen #1). This can't be dropped by plane for 2 reasons; only squads or non-squads of load cost 6 or less. This was from the original stock and the only bug fixes were made to the original code.
However they can be moved to that base once the base/AF is secured.
[restrictions for moving are non-squad or non-engineer devices with a load cost of 8 or less.]
I'm confused for the reason above.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:51 pm
by michaelm75au
A squad-type device can be dropped regardless of load cost. That covers the Para Squad and Support.
A Combat Engineer is not a squad, but an engineer-type device. As such it is constrained by the load cost limit of 7 or less to drop.
The 81mm mortar is an army weapon-type device but it can be dropped as the load cost is 7 or less.
The HMG is a squad-type device so can be dropped.
However, the Combat Engineer can be moved between friendly bases as squad and engineer types are not limited by load cost.
Noticed error in this statement.
However they can be moved to that base once the base/AF is secured.
[restrictions for moving are non-squad or non-engineer devices with a load cost of 9 or less.]
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:52 pm
by witpqs
I thought the point about the pack howitzers was that they were more easily transportable, even by parachute?
Sorry I don't have a link to the old discussion. I'll see if I can find it later.
RE: US Para Rgt
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:58 pm
by michaelm75au
I can only go by what is in the editor. The load cost is 9 for the 75mm pack howitzer.
Actually, I notice that the 75mm's are in the USMC Para Bn in Guadalcanal scenario. It doesn't look like that these devices are part of the normal OOB for those units, though. So they may be there as the troops are being used in shore assault mode rather than being dropped.