Page 1 of 2
Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:40 pm
by jjdenver
Can anyone comment on conventional wisdom for Synths when using the RAW oil rule? What I mean is which countries should normally build Synth and when should they build?
Thx
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:11 pm
by MilRevKo
Germany and Japan are usually going to build them
the soon build the lonrger the return, build in forest away from strat bombers
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:15 pm
by obermeister
Without politics in flames, I can't believe that any of the powers will feel particularly oil constrained. Germany gets like 2 oil till barbarossa from USSR, plus 2 native, plus oil from Rumania, and Japan gets plenty prior to a US embargo (I think 2 from NEI and 2 from USA?).
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:40 pm
by Ur_Vile_WEdge
I'll usually build 1-2 with Japan, for when the embargo or war declaration finally comes (And Japan tends to have a little bit of trouble getting enough resources for all of her factories, so a few extra oils can be nice). Since unless you get into a major wrestling match with the Soviets, you don't have a lot of pressure on your builds, you have the leisure to put them together.
Germany, I like to get a few, for similar reasons. Although you'll have one oil at home, another in Austria, and will be getting 2 from Romania (later 3 when you align her), you also usually need to be dripping oil to the Italians, who can have trouble getting the stuff. My current build plan makes 2, both constructed during 1940, but that's something that changes a lot.
I always promise myself to build one as the CW, but I never have the build points to spare for it
Other than that, I don't think I build too many.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:48 pm
by jjdenver
ORIGINAL: MilRevKo
build in forest away from strat bombers
Does forest halve strat bombing?
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:58 pm
by jjdenver
ORIGINAL: obermeister
Without politics in flames, I can't believe that any of the powers will feel particularly oil constrained. Germany gets like 2 oil till barbarossa from USSR, plus 2 native, plus oil from Rumania, and Japan gets plenty prior to a US embargo (I think 2 from NEI and 2 from USA?).
It's been 10 years since I've played much and seen endgame, but I think US alone uses 10+ oil per turn in late game. I think USA synth build is a good idea. But I'd like to hear other opinions...and for other countries (CW, USSR in Urals, etc)
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:14 pm
by Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
ORIGINAL: MilRevKo
build in forest away from strat bombers
Does forest halve strat bombing?
Terrain does not affect strategic bombing.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:20 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
ORIGINAL: MilRevKo
build in forest away from strat bombers
Does forest halve strat bombing?
From MWIF code:
Code: Select all
HalfAirFactorsWeather = [wRain, wSnow];
NoAirFactorsWeather = [wStorm, wBlizzard];
HalfAirFactorsTerrain = [teForest, teJungle, teSwamp];
HalfShoreBombardmentFactorsTerrain = HalfAirFactorsTerrain;
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:25 pm
by jjdenver
Steve, I don't think that code is right. Strat bombing isn't affected by terrain. The rules specifically say for example that weather, o-chits, and terrain affect ground strike. But for strat bombing they only say that weather affects the strat bombing factors.
Anyway I don't want to divert the thread too much. I still haven't heard comments about USSR building a Synth in Urals on turn 2, or CW building a Synth in Scotland on turn 1, or Italy building a synth, etc.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:33 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
ORIGINAL: MilRevKo
build in forest away from strat bombers
Does forest halve strat bombing?
From MWIF code:
Code: Select all
HalfAirFactorsWeather = [wRain, wSnow];
NoAirFactorsWeather = [wStorm, wBlizzard];
HalfAirFactorsTerrain = [teForest, teJungle, teSwamp];
HalfShoreBombardmentFactorsTerrain = HalfAirFactorsTerrain;
Here's the routine for modifying bombing factors. Loc is where the air unit starts. ULF is the target hex. P is the phase of the game. The AirDistance code is for flying at extended range.
Code: Select all
// ****************************************************************************
function TAirUnit.ApplyEffects(const ULF: TUnitLocationFull;
const P: TPhase;
const SP: TAirSubPhase;
var Value: Extended): Byte;
var
W: TWeatherTypes;
T: TTerrainTypes;
Loc: TUnitLocationFull;
begin
Result := 0;
if not ((P in NavalCombatPhases) or ULF.OnLand) then Exit;
if OnTheMove then Loc := MovingStack.PickUpPoint
else Loc := FullLocation(Self);
if Loc.AtSea then W := SeaAreas[Loc.SeaAreaID].SeaAreaWeather
else W := Map.HexWeather[ULF.Column, ULF.Row];
T := Map.WeatherTerrain[ULF.Column, ULF.Row];
// ****************************************************************************
// Increase or reduce the bombing effectiveness due to HQ, night missions,
// and/or extended range.
// ****************************************************************************
if (P <> pGroundStrike) and InAirOffensiveHQRangeHex(ULF.Hex) then
Value := Value * 2;
if NightMission then Value := Value / 2;
if Map.AirDistance(P, Self, Loc, ULF.Hex,
UnitHomeCountryCommonwealth(Self), Range) > Range then
Value := Value / 2;
// ****************************************************************************
// Reduce the bombing effectiveness due to anti-aircraft fire.
// ****************************************************************************
if Flying and
(((P in AirPhases) and
(SP in [AspAntiAirD, AspAntiAirA, AspAttack, AspReturnA, AspReturnD])) or
((P in NavalCombatPhases) and
(Game.CurrNavalCombat <> nil) and
(Game.NCSubPhase in [NCspAntiAirD, NCspNavalAirA, NCspAntiAirA,
NCspNavalAirD]))) then
Value := Max(0, Value - Working8Bits);
// ****************************************************************************
// Reduce the bombing effectiveness due to weather and terrain.
// ****************************************************************************
if Flying or AtSea or OnTheMove then
begin
if (not Flying) or
((not (P in AirPhases) or
(not (SP in [AspAntiAirD, AspAntiAirA]))) and
((not (P in NavalCombatPhases)) or
(Game.CurrNavalCombat = nil) or
(not (Game.NCSubPhase in [NCspAntiAirD, NCspAntiAirA])))) then
begin
if W in HalfAirFactorsWeather then Value := Value / 2
else if W in NoAirFactorsWeather then Value := 0;
end;
if (P in [pGroundStrike, pGroundSupport, pCarpetBombing]) and
(T in HalfAirFactorsTerrain) then
Value := Value / 2;
end;
end;
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:44 pm
by Ur_Vile_WEdge
Italy- Generally, if Italy needs more oil, it's easier to beg it from Germany. Pure build point wise, it's cheaper to lend Germany the build points and then have him build it and lend you the oil than to do it yourself. Even without that, Italy just doesn't use a whole lot of oil, unless you break out of the Med, in what I've found. Medeiterranian fighting always seems to be dominated by land based air, and the oil you're being lent from Germany ought to be enough to cover that.
U.S.S.R. To be honest, I think that the Soviets have the worst case for building a synth, with the possible exception of China, who just has no BP to devote to such a venture. There are 10 oil in the U.S.S.R., and you're pretty likely to nail Persia at some point which gives 3 more once the CW can start shipping those two from Bandar Shapur. And you really need to work with the assumption that a big nasty war is going to erupt in 41, at which point you'll need every unit that can stand up, see lightning, and hear thunder. I'd almost always rather have 8 build points worth of troops than a synth.
CW. Of course, I'd love a synth plant that gives oil in the UK without need to ship it from somewhere. But the CW are stretched so thin, and you need so many things. During the first few turns, you probably want to have 2 corps sized and one division sized unit in Gibraltar, send at least something to help France, send in some more troops in North Africa, while leaving some 5-6 units at least to stop the Germans from Sealioning you and making synth plants irrelevant. Don't forget to guard your convoys and replace any points that you lose anyway, with possibly sending land based air for your thicker concentrations. Sooner or later, you'll have to guard against what the Japanese are doing, which means more troops in Aden, Australia, Singapore, India, etc.
And then you have to build up troops or planes for a counterattack somewhere when things pick up a bit. I always want to get that synth plant, but I never have 8 build points to spare for one.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:54 pm
by composer99
Based on the experience of me and my gaming group, Germany and Japan are the most likely to build synth oil.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:58 pm
by Froonp
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
Steve, I don't think that code is right. Strat bombing isn't affected by terrain. The rules specifically say for example that weather, o-chits, and terrain affect ground strike. But for strat bombing they only say that weather affects the strat bombing factors.
Only carpet bombing is.
11.8 says :
"Add up the strategic factors of your surviving bombers modified by terrain (see 14.5). "
Strat bombing is not.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:52 pm
by jjdenver
"U.S.S.R. To be honest, I think that the Soviets have the worst case for building a synth, with the possible exception of China, who just has no BP to devote to such a venture. There are 10 oil in the U.S.S.R., and you're pretty likely to nail Persia at some point which gives 3 more once the CW can start shipping those two from Bandar Shapur. And you really need to work with the assumption that a big nasty war is going to erupt in 41, at which point you'll need every unit that can stand up, see lightning, and hear thunder. I'd almost always rather have 8 build points worth of troops than a synth."
I hear what you're saying about needing units. So if you built a Synth in ND 39, it would return to you BP's starting in ND 40 - 1/2 BP per turn assuming you are short resources until war w/ Germany. So maybe 1.5 BP's before war. Once war starts and factories start getting shipped I guess USSR will run surplus resources for 4 turns(?). After that the synth can be used to fuel factories in the Urals or produce oil.
I haven't ever been in the situation of fighting from Baku and the Urals. Is it a problem to fuel the Urals factories or usually not a problem?
Thx
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:32 pm
by Ur_Vile_WEdge
And if you can't manage to get all your factories out before the Germans come knocking? You're going to be needing rail moves to ferry troops around, don't forget. And if the Soviets are really short on resources, it's much simpler to beg from your allies. It's not hard for the CW to send resources from India or Malaya, which probably aren't going to be used much anyway. Logistically, I don't see the problem, since you can put your synth in Omsk or somewhere that the Germans aren't likely to reach, but I haven't been short on resources for the Soviets all that often.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:40 pm
by brian brian
I build one for the USA on the first turn. It will come on-board just about the time you can lend resources to other countries.
For the Japanese I build both just after war with the USA begins. Before that I want a lot of land units to go out and take as many resources as possible from the Persians, Chinese, Russians, British, and Dutch; obviously with some naval and naval air investments too. But I think building them too early is a mistake.
For the Germans it would depend on how they are doing. Pretty much the same thinking as the Japanese but perhaps a year later as 1942 is critical in Russia; build them in the middle of the game and they might save you at the end.
For the CW and USSR, only if it looks like the country might go down as the Axis starts doing really well. There is only one oil in Siberia....and none in the UK, though it might be safer to build one in Canada. If the Germans take Baku and the Japanese hold Persia and the west is struggling to deliver oil through the Arctic, the Russians are going to need one. But I do a lot of different things with Russia's pre-war saved oil such as using it in Leningrad during the siege, rather than banking all of it in Siberia. For me it is dispersed all over the place for various Russian fortress areas to be able to fly planes or use HQ support. So I will need some in Siberia if I lose connection to Uncle Sugar....who built a Synth plant to help out it's Allies on the first turn.
Italy & China never unless they are about to take over the world and win the game and have nothing else to build nor further enemies to smite with offensive points. Actually China more likely than Italy if none ever made it in on the Burma Road. I don't buy Chinese oil dependent units until I am completely out of leg units or it is getting on into 1943 or so. But once China starts building the wonderful US planes they might need some oil to fly them...
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:42 pm
by Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
Steve, I don't think that code is right. Strat bombing isn't affected by terrain. The rules specifically say for example that weather, o-chits, and terrain affect ground strike. But for strat bombing they only say that weather affects the strat bombing factors.
Only carpet bombing is.
11.8 says :
"Add up the strategic factors of your surviving bombers modified by terrain (see 14.5). "
Strat bombing is not.
Again, the exception makes sense realisticly. Most programmers hate exceptions; they make for horrid truth tables.[:D]
Strategic bombing not affected by terrain.
Carpet bombing is affected by terrain, using the printed strategic factors of an aircraft.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:44 pm
by jjdenver
ORIGINAL: brian brian
For the CW and USSR, only if it looks like the country might go down as the Axis starts doing really well. There is only one oil in Siberia....and none in the UK, though it might be safer to build one in Canada. If the Germans take Baku and the Japanese hold Persia and the west is struggling to deliver oil through the Arctic, the Russians are going to need one. But I do a lot of different things with Russia's pre-war saved oil such as using it in Leningrad during the siege, rather than banking all of it in Siberia. For me it is dispersed all over the place for various Russian fortress areas to be able to fly planes or use HQ support. So I will need some in Siberia if I lose connection to Uncle Sugar....who built a Synth plant to help out it's Allies on the first turn.
I guess USSR doesn't normally have much oil to bank pre-war due to resource short from Nazi-Soviet pact right? Just the odd half from not need it due to rounding.
And once you are in trouble w/ USSR it might be hard to squeeze one out so building it early gives you more oil banked pre-war, and smoother production rather than waiting a year for it once you're in trouble.
I'm not arguing btw because honestly I'm not sure what the best course is - just trying to weigh all the possibilities.
For CW, I guess the reason to build it first turn in Scotland would be to make an easier convoy war, but building it in Canada I guess makes sense if you can't run a single CP to Burma. Hm.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:17 am
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: jjdenver
Steve, I don't think that code is right. Strat bombing isn't affected by terrain. The rules specifically say for example that weather, o-chits, and terrain affect ground strike. But for strat bombing they only say that weather affects the strat bombing factors.
Only carpet bombing is.
11.8 says :
"Add up the strategic factors of your surviving bombers modified by terrain (see 14.5). "
Strat bombing is not.
Again, the exception makes sense realisticly. Most programmers hate exceptions; they make for horrid truth tables.[:D]
Strategic bombing not affected by terrain.
Carpet bombing is affected by terrain, using the printed strategic factors of an aircraft.
Yes. The longer code fragment shows in which phases the terrain effects are applied.
RE: Synth builds with oil rule
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:27 am
by Shannon V. OKeets
For information on building Synthetic oil plants (unit type 61), here is the raw data for the 14 such units in MWIF.
===
6001,61,11,,,1937,8,,
6002,61,49,,,1939,8,,
6003,61,49,,,1941,8,,
6004,61,51,,,1939,9,,
6005,61,76,,,1938,8,,
6006,61,76,,,1941,8,,
6007,61,79,,,1936,7,,
6008,61,79,,,1939,7,,
6009,61,79,,,1940,7,,
6010,61,80,,,1939,8,,
6011,61,89,,,1938,8,,
6012,61,204,,,1940,9,,
6013,61,89,El Agheila,,1940,10,46,84
6014,61,201,Kuwait,,1940,8,76,84
===
11 = US
49 = Japan
51 = USSR
76 = UK
79 = Germany
80 = France
89 = Italy
201 = CW
204 = Nationalist China
The cost to build and year first available are shown too. The last 2 units have to be placed in specific hexes.
Given that it takes 6 turns to build a synthetic oil plant, the return on investment is a function of the production multiple when it is built and when it is producing oil.