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My PBEM game has just passed the December 1943 ,two year anniversery point. For a long time now the allied bomber squadrons have been cutting through my CAP like a hot knife through butter, often taking down a fighter or two for no loss. My opponent has been taunting me with the fact that he now has several bomber "Aces".

I thought I would look at my bomber units to see how well they have been doing. Imagine my shock when I looked through every level bomber, dive bomber and torpedo unit I have, and discovered they have accounted for exactly "zero" enemy fighters in 2 years of gaming. I have lost just over 2,000 bombers to enemy fighter action during this time.

I understand that japanese bombers are not exactlly death incarnate (except possibly for thier pilots.). Surely at some point in the war at least one allied fighter was shot down by japanese bombers even if by accident.

This was a somewhat dissapointing discovery while I head into a period of the game that has many dissapointments in store for me. Do any japanese players out there have better results? For those of you who are students of this theater, does this reflect the historical record?

Please do not take this as a rant, I love this game above all others and have played it almost exclusively for the past year.

For what it is worth I have a game ( against the AI, scen 1 ) that I stopped at 4/42 game time. One Sally unit, and one Betty unit have one kill each.

Japanese bombers and attack aircraft were protected by peashooters and their fighter escort. That's why Japanese fighters had long range.

During Guadalcanal campaing allied fighter pilots learned to avoid Betty's 20 mm tail gun... 

While your results indicate a possible problem..., there are two factors involved.  Allied Bombers were not only more strongly protected than their Japanese counter-parts, they were much more strongly built.  B-17's made it home with damage that would have destroyed three Bettys.  Same dichotomy existed with Japanese and Allied Fighters.  The rugged Allied A/C would continue to fly and fight with damage that would have put most Japanese fighters into a fire-ball.

So the Japs come up short on both sides of the equasion.  Their weaker armament (fighters and bombers) faced tougher targets..., while the Allies with stronger armament faced A/C that couldn't "take it" at all.

I've been playing since UV came out and have yet to shoot down an Allied plane with a Japanese bomber. When (or if) that happens, that guy is going home on a 180 day's leave. [:D]

I bet there sure were Allied fighters shot down by Japanese bombers. Sure not often or comparable to Allied heavy bombers but a kill now and then sure happened.

ORIGINAL: herwin

Japanese bombers and attack aircraft were protected by peashooters and their fighter escort. That's why Japanese fighters had long range.

Yes, but even peashooters take out an eye from time to time, or so my mother assured me when I was younger[:)]

Depends. Mod in the G6M-1 Betty (the long range escort type) keeping everything the same except change it to fighter from bomber and what it rack up the kills. Goes from mediocre bomber to Ace Maker....totally unrealistic. I did that in one game and assigned 1 squadron to Takao...by the end of 12/41 the squad had a dozen Aces.

And if you are wondering, yes the G6M was used, and yes it was a total failure in the real war, which is why it was discontinued...its the way the game treats fighter vs bomber that is making the very unrealistic difference.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I've been playing since UV came out and have yet to shoot down an Allied plane with a Japanese bomber. When (or if) that happens, that guy is going home on a 180 day's leave. [:D]

In the very early days of UV I had some Japanese bombers score some kills. I think that ability has been tweaked out of existence.

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

While your results indicate a possible problem..., there are two factors involved.  Allied Bombers were not only more strongly armed than their Japanese counter-parts, they were much more strongly built.  B-17's made it home with damage that would have destroyed three Bettys.  Same dichotomy existed with Japanese and Allied Fighters.  The rugged Allied A/C would continue to fly and fight with damage that would have put most Japanese fighters into a fire-ball.

So the Japs come up short on both sides of the equasion.  Their weaker armament (fighters and bombers) faced tougher targets..., while the Allies with stronger armament faced A/C that couldn't "take it" at all.

Still, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while"..., so enough 7.7 bullets sprayed at attacking Allied fighters should find a "weak spot" (like the pilot's head) once in a while. No losses isn't right, and ought to be checked out.

I think easiest way to see if bombers have kills is to check top pilots list? Every pilot with one or more kills is listed, and plane he is flying. So if there's no bombers mentioned, no bomber pilot have any kills.

My top pilot lists (2 PBEM games 9/42 and 10/42) have only fighter pilots.

For what it is worth, here is a pic of a Sally crew with a kill :

I've got a book in my library about Allied pilots and their most exciting missions.  One was from a P-40 pilot in China who flew a night bomber interception mission over his airfield.  He shot down two Bettys and damaged another, but their rear aimed MG fire shot down his plane and he ended up parachuting and landing just outside the airbase perimeter.

I complained about this in the early days of AE and it was passed off. At the time I noticed that no light or medium bomber had ever shot down a fighter in the combat replay. It is not just a Japanese problem as Allied mediums and SBDs do not ever score kills as well. My game is in mid 43 and I have perhaps half a dozen or less kills from planes that are not heavies. For bombers, the mitchell and marauders were fairly well armed and if they maintained tight formation were not too bad at fighting off Japanese fighters. Even SBDs has some sucesses fighting off fighters. So it is not just a Japanese problem.

As a sop, I suppose that some to the operational losses among fighters are due to damage taken from defensive fire.

but lets face it, even a blind squirrel should be able to find a nut now and then....

I saw B-25 Mitchells kill Japanese fighters a few times. Save for them and 4E bombers, no bomber of any type ever managed to shot down an attacking fighter on my memory. Their fire might have accounted for some ops losses, but who knows. All in all, while in RL 2E bombers, unless absolutely outdated, greatly outnumbered, or with green pilots, could have expected 1 fighter kill per 6-8 losses even in the most unfavorable circumstances, this just doesn't happen in AE. For Japanese this lack of firepower is particularly problematic, as their bombers' survivability in air combat is apparently modeled by 1945 standards. Well, I understand that the bombers (applies to Allied 2E bombers as well, just Japanese suffer from this harder) must be more fragile to balance the fact, that it is far too easy to stage massive and frequent air attacks against the enemy navy, and it is relatively easy to score hits on warships, but I still want the bomber gunners to be more effective.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I complained about this in the early days of AE and it was passed off. At the time I noticed that no light or medium bomber had ever shot down a fighter in the combat replay. It is not just a Japanese problem as Allied mediums and SBDs do not ever score kills as well. My game is in mid 43 and I have perhaps half a dozen or less kills from planes that are not heavies. For bombers, the mitchell and marauders were fairly well armed and if they maintained tight formation were not too bad at fighting off Japanese fighters. Even SBDs has some sucesses fighting off fighters. So it is not just a Japanese problem.

As a sop, I suppose that some to the operational losses among fighters are due to damage taken from defensive fire.

but lets face it, even a blind squirrel should be able to find a nut now and then....

The USN attack aircraft pilots I knew back when took pride in not needing an escort. I understand their attitude went back to the 30s. SBDs provided anti-VT CAP in at least one 1942 carrier battle.

ORIGINAL: FatR

I saw B-25 Mitchells kill Japanese fighters a few times. Save for them and 4E bombers, no bomber of any type ever managed to shot down an attacking fighter on my memory. Their fire might have accounted for some ops losses, but who knows. All in all, while in RL 2E bombers, unless absolutely outdated, greatly outnumbered, or with green pilots, could have expected 1 fighter kill per 6-8 losses even in the most unfavorable circumstances, this just doesn't happen in AE. For Japanese this lack of firepower is particularly problematic, as their bombers' survivability in air combat is apparently modeled by 1945 standards. Well, I understand that the bombers (applies to Allied 2E bombers as well, just Japanese suffer from this harder) must be more fragile to balance the fact, that it is far too easy to stage massive and frequent air attacks against the enemy navy, and it is relatively easy to score hits on warships, but I still want the bomber gunners to be more effective.

That's about the correct exchange ratio.

For what it is worth, here is a pic of a Sally crew with a kill :

What is Pappy Boyington doing on your list? [X(]

ORIGINAL: scott1964

For what it is worth, here is a pic of a Sally crew with a kill :

What is Pappy Boyington doing on your list? [X(]

That is a known bug.