Matrix Games Forums

one of the things that irks me about this game is that combat support units are pretty much useless to you, as the germans, unless they are in the corps HQs that hover 1-2 hexes away from the combat. When you start a game as the Axis, NO MATTER WHAT GAME/Scenario you start, you must literally go to each Higher HQ, some who have been inexplicably loaded with 15-20 combat support units, that they will never dispense to your combat units, which force you to methodically click on each support unit, and send them to your corps-until you run out of admin points. Next turn, rinse and repeat with the new batch of admin points and move the remaining support units. So when you start a game, you play hunt down and relocate as many support units as you can. In the big campaign games this will take hours because it'll probably take 3-4 turns of using up admin points to finally get what you want-then lock it-which in effect makes the whole attachment of combat support units to HQs higher than corps irrelevant.
If its not more effective to move the combat support units from Army HQs/Group HQs to front line corps-tell me what Im missing?

And to maximize the air component I have a sneaky suspicion that one must fine tune each air base as well-almost in a similar manner. But I dont want to go there yet.

Combat Support Units can function in two ways:

1. Directly attached to a division/corps (Soviet only) where they will be used each time the unit attacks or defends


2. Directly attached to a Corps/Army (Soviets) HQ where they can be sent to any unit in the Corps/Army that is directly assigned to that Corps/Army and they may be committed to more then one battle if the leader and units pass their morale checks.

So if you dont' want to mircomanage the support units then they still will be used by the divisions as sent by their HQ's or if you want to micromanage their attachment you can do that or if you want to use a combination of both you can do that as well.

So combat support units are not useless if you don't attach them directly to a division/corps (Soviets) they will in fact be used.

   Ive seen enough posts here from testers, and my limited experience with the game-that if you want support units to fight, you must move them out of the HHQs into the corps.  Call it micromanaging-but just admit that its MANDATORY micromanaging because when combat attachments are attached to Axis higher HQs-such as army and group et al, they dont do anything-they just sit there. All Im saying is that combat support units that are attached to those higher HQs will be largely irrelevant in this game, and if you are doing PBEM, especially in a large game, get used to spending a good hour or 2, for each game you start, moving support units over 3-4 turns to your corps.

I would like to see the opening move attacker-either Axis in 41 or Sovs in 44, have to the option to move all the support units in those HHQs to Corps HQs (Not division)in one sitting-at the start of the game-maybe show the pre planning that went into the offensive

just admit that its MANDATORY micromanaging

For the first 3 games I played I didn't manually move a single support unit, I just used the automated system, and then directly attached the units the AI gave me to my divisions. In my 3rd game I got a decisive victory as the axis, so I don't think anyone should consider manual movement of support units between HQs as mandatory.

because when combat attachments are attached to Axis higher HQs-such as army and group et al, they dont do anything-they just sit there. 

That is not correct. As per:

7.6. HEADQUARTER UNITS (HQ)
Headquarter units provide a chain of command for command and control of units in Gary Grigsby’s War in the East. With the exception of High Command headquarters units, all units, to include support and air group units, have a higher headquarters unit to which they are attached. The current command and control arrangement for the phasing player can be viewed either through the Order of Battle (OOB) screen in the info screens tab (5.1.2.2) or through the Commanders Report (5.4.9). For on-map units, this immediate higher headquarters unit can provide logistical and combat support if within the applicable range. There is no limit to the number of combat units that can be attached to a Headquarters unit, however, ground headquarter units that exceed their normal capacity, termed command capacity, will become less effective. Most combat units will normally be attached to lower level headquarters units, however, direct attachment of combat units to any ground headquarters unit is permitted. Note that air headquarters units, air base units, and rail repair units cannot attach combat units and each type has different attachment rules and restrictions (7.6.1). With the exception of air base units, any headquarters unit can attach support units, though there are some restrictions based on both the type of HQ units and the type of support units (7.6.3).

and

15.4. SUPPORT UNITS IN COMBAT
Support units can participate in combat as part of the attacking or defending side. Support units that are directly attached to combat units will automatically be added to the battle. Support units attached to headquarters units must pass a series of checks in order to be committed to a battle. Headquarters units can only commit support units to attached combat units. The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace an indeterminate path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those same combat units in order to commit support units during combat. Note that the actual distance through friendly hexes from a HQ unit to an attached combat unit does not impact the ability to commit support units, as long as the HQ unit is within five hexes “as the crow flies”.

See also 15.5.1.

Therefore if you unlock the HQ support levels then the game system will attempt to move the support units where they need to go, also as long as they are within 5 hexes of the HQ unit the directly attached combat units may receive combat support.

But if your concern is the micromanagement of the support levels and if your wanting a global set support levels for all HQ so that the automated system assigns the combat support units to the HQs from higher HQ then your correct this is no method to click a button and be one and done, you have the capability to do it indivisibly which in turn gives you the flexibility to have formations at different support levels.

Finally to round this all off:

From page 101:

Support Level: Indicates the number of each type of support unit that the computer will attempt to automatically assign to the headquarters. Below this are buttons to increase (ADD) or decrease (SUB) the current support level. Selecting LOCK will turn off the automatic movement of support units to and from the headquarters. Note that automatic assignment will not function for that particular headquarters unit if any higher headquarters unit in that HQ unit’s chain, to include the High Command, is set to LOCKED (7.6.3).

Yup should just be alot easier percentage taps at each HQ for support units or the like. The leader could modify this with his political rating modeling how good he is at getting reserves form high coomand if you want to beef it out.

To avoid micromanagement of support units, set the support level progressively higher as you go down the chain of command (DO NOT USE LOCKED). For example, I will set OKH at 1, AGC at 2, 2nd Panzer Group at 3, XXXXVI Panzer Corps at 4. This method will "push" support units down the chain of command. If they start to build up anywhere above corps, crank all the lower HQs up another notch. You can do this all the way up to 9 support units by type per corps (i.e. 9 assault gun battalions, 9 artillery battalions, etc. in each corps). You loose the precise control you have with micromanagement but it makes the game play a lot faster.

ORIGINAL: jaw

To avoid micromanagement of support units, set the support level progressively higher as you go down the chain of command (DO NOT USE LOCKED). For example, I will set OKH at 1, AGC at 2, 2nd Panzer Group at 3, XXXXVI Panzer Corps at 4. This method will "push" support units down the chain of command. If they start to build up anywhere above corps, crank all the lower HQs up another notch. You can do this all the way up to 9 support units by type per corps (i.e. 9 assault gun battalions, 9 artillery battalions, etc. in each corps). You loose the precise control you have with micromanagement but it makes the game play a lot faster.

Yes this might be a good idea for me...And yah I can crush the AI with whatever the computer gives me-but in PBEM there is no way you are gonna win without having as many particular combat support units attached to your corps.

I think I will try what jaw suggested

I have the high command (OKH), Army Group, and Army commands all at 0, and corp HQ's at 6-8. The only benefit I can see of having combat support units at Army/Front and above to give individual divisions a broader choice of manually attached units.

I am playing Road to Smolensk and it seems the AI is doing a good job assigning the support units down the chain of command as very few support units, or even none at all in some cases, were residing in the Army or Army Group HQs. Still, thanks raizer for raising the issue...I'll use the clever trick jaw mentioned to make sure these support units are pushed down to where they do the most good as much as possible.

But I am also thinking I should check these support units when a Corps HQ's units are about to do some tough battles.

I micromanage the support units myself, but the automated system usually does a good job. Some of the problems you might face are that you can't lock a certain type of support unit, or set a support level for a certain type of support unit. Improvements for both issues have already been suggested pre-release, so they'll hopefully be there in the future. You can only lock the entire HQ and set a general support level for the entire HQ. That's also why manual finetuning is usually necessary after letting the AI move support units after setting the support levels.

ORIGINAL: jaw

To avoid micromanagement of support units, set the support level progressively higher as you go down the chain of command (DO NOT USE LOCKED). For example, I will set OKH at 1, AGC at 2, 2nd Panzer Group at 3, XXXXVI Panzer Corps at 4. This method will "push" support units down the chain of command. If they start to build up anywhere above corps, crank all the lower HQs up another notch. You can do this all the way up to 9 support units by type per corps (i.e. 9 assault gun battalions, 9 artillery battalions, etc. in each corps). You loose the precise control you have with micromanagement but it makes the game play a lot faster.

Brilliant suggestion!

Jim, what you suggest can probably be more efficiently achieved by simply setting army level HQ's to 1 or 2 and corps HQ's to 3 or so and all the other HQ's to 0. There is no need to put any combat units in above army level HQ's, but giving them a positive support level will move some support units to them.

For mobile unit HQ's I'd suggest attaching all combat support units to the divisions themselves. I personally attach combat units to infantry divisions too, but I guess some will want to keep a few in the corps HQ. The main problem is that there's a boatload of artillery that will compete with the combat units for being allowed to take part in a battle, which is why I only have artillery in my army HQ's as the Soviets and nothing else.

Why would anyone want something other than construction and possibly some flak at Army/Front or higher HQs? Am I missing something? They'll never be added to combat.

[&:]

Indeed, there's no reason to do so normally. The reason why I'd give an army HQ a support level of 1 or 2 on the first turn is because if all the corps are set to 4, some corps will end up with lots of units and some with few or none. If you set an army HQ to 1 or 2 and the corps belonging to it to 2 or 3, some support units will move to the army HQ, which you can then manually move to the corps HQ's that are lacking support units. Relying solely on the automated support unit movement system isn't ideal.

As explained in other threads, as the Soviets I normally set every HQ to 0 aside from STAVKA and then put STAVKA on a train to reassign the support units manually (but without an AP cost). You could do the same thing for OKH, of course.

Pieter, your suggestions for the Soviets work well in 41/42 but in 43 I set Stavka to 1 or 0 and the Fronts to 1 and the Armies it depends on the mission and units attached, for example a Guards Tank Army may get 5 or more if it has 3 tank corps and 1 mech corps plus some rifle corps.

But our principles are the same, the idea is that has years and doctrines change so does the usages.

It's true that support unit usage changes throughout the years, but at this point I'm still not sure what kind of support units aside from RR repair brigades I'd want to have in anything above army level HQ's as the Soviets both early on and later on in the war. From 1942 on, I'd probably attach combat support units to corps and still leaving some artillery in army level HQ's. Depending on production, some artillery regiments might be disbanded to keep artillery divisions up to strength.

For the fronts I use RR/construction and AA, that is it, for the armies mostly all artillery/mortars/rockets and some engineers, for the corps the kitchen sink...lol

I do exactly what Don does. Although I'd be tempted in the future to disband some rocket regiments to more quickly populate the rocket divisions and brigades. Those things build up very slowly for some strange reason, far more so than the tube artillery divisions.

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Why would anyone want something other than construction and possibly some flak at Army/Front or higher HQs? Am I missing something? They'll never be added to combat.

Someone correct me if I am wrong (as I have already been), but my understanding is that the superior HQs will rotate their support units up and down to sub-hqs to satisfy the "levels" that the player selects. Say that a Corps HQ has a level set to 3, and 3 of its 9 attached support elements are destroyed (or perhaps beaten up), then the superior HQs will ("can")send down replacement support units to replace them. If all of the support units are within Corps, then a Corps that is short of its requirements will not get any support units, because support units only move up and down the command chain and not "laterally" between Corps or Hqs at the same command level.

Assuming that this is true, I leave all my Corps at the default level of "3", which means that each Corps can get up to nine support units, in addition to the support units that can intervene during battle from the Corps HQ (only 6 at a time can intervene).

Henri