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Can someone tidy up a wee debate we're having....how many German DIvisions were involved in Wacht am Rhein?

I just want a number - no lists required and it's a given that support units were there - I just want to know how many divisions please.

Thx

The Battle of the Bulge began with a German attack on the morning of December 16 , 1944. Under cover of heavy fog, 38 German divisions struck along a 50-mile front.

The plan originally called for just under 45 divisions, including a dozen panzer and panzergrenadier divisions forming the armored spearhead and various infantry units to form a defensive line as the battle unfolded. By this time, however, the German Army suffered from an acute manpower shortage and the force had been reduced to around 30 divisions.

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Can someone tidy up a wee debate we're having....how many German DIvisions were involved in Wacht am Rhein?

I just want a number - no lists required and it's a given that support units were there - I just want to know how many divisions please.

Thx

Warspite1

JD, according to Osprey the three German armies had a total of nineteen divisions in the First Wave. I do not know how many divisions were later thrown in as follow-up forces - sorry.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Can someone tidy up a wee debate we're having....how many German DIvisions were involved in Wacht am Rhein?

I just want a number - no lists required and it's a given that support units were there - I just want to know how many divisions please.

Thx

Warspite1

JD, according to Osprey the three German armies had a total of nineteen divisions in the First Wave. I do not know how many divisions were later thrown in as follow-up forces - sorry.

Damn, that's a lot of men in a small area. [X(]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Can someone tidy up a wee debate we're having....how many German DIvisions were involved in Wacht am Rhein?

I just want a number - no lists required and it's a given that support units were there - I just want to know how many divisions please.

Thx

Warspite1

JD, according to Osprey the three German armies had a total of nineteen divisions in the First Wave. I do not know how many divisions were later thrown in as follow-up forces - sorry.

Damn, that's a lot of men in a small area. [X(]

Warspite1

I think they were spread out over about 100km north to south - and of course the divisions varied enormously in size.

Divisions numbered 27, but not all of the armored divisions were released on day 1. As usual, there are other factors that cloud the answer. There were many powerful brigades that were attached to corps or at army level. I do not have that number , but I think it safe to assume that those additional brigades could have been worth several more divisions-at least.

There was supposed to be a large reserve (25?) additional divisions to exploit the breakthrough. I do not recall if those were ever actually assembled near the front-or if those were actually available. It seems the roads were choked well enough just servicing the the initial force-it is doubtful that many more were added to the effort.

18 Divisions in the initial assault, 9 divisions committed later (plus the 2 Fuehrer Brigades), would make the total involved 27 (or 28 if counting the 2 brigades as 1 division).

Hitlers unit list of November 10th included 38 divisions, but this included units of the 15th Army and 1st Army that didn't actually participate, and the 10SS Pz that was kept in reserve and never committed.

True but if I recall correctly quite a few were Volks divisions.

December 1944 - What constitutes a German Division?

Good question, the TO&E was radically different depending on if it was Wehrmacht or Waffen SS since one was starved to the benefit of the other.

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

December 1944 - What constitutes a German Division?

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

December 1944 - What constitutes a German Division?

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

18 Divisions in the initial assault, 9 divisions committed later (plus the 2 Fuehrer Brigades), would make the total involved 27 (or 28 if counting the 2 brigades as 1 division).

Hitlers unit list of November 10th included 38 divisions, but this included units of the 15th Army and 1st Army that didn't actually participate, and the 10SS Pz that was kept in reserve and never committed.

I'd say the a Fuehrer Brigade was on par with middling German division by late 44 except that it had a higher standard of troops

LOL I love the quote at the bottom. Edited to add the Avatar you use is from one of my favorite movies, Kellys Heroes.

Bravo.

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

December 1944 - What constitutes a German Division?

Seems I never get enough compliments on my avatar on these forums.  I guess then it's a good thing when I went to upload to something more refreshing, I just get an error from the MG forum.

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Can someone tidy up a wee debate we're having....how many German DIvisions were involved in Wacht am Rhein? ...

Warspite1

JD, according to Osprey the three German armies had a total of nineteen divisions in the First Wave. I do not know how many divisions were later thrown in as follow-up forces - sorry.

Damn, that's a lot of men in a small area. [X(]

I suspect many of those German divisions were "under strength," but why not address this question in the BftB forum?

It could use the activity [;)]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

but why not address this question in the BftB forum?

It could use the activity [;)]

Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark! [:D]

I suspect many of those German divisions were "under strength," but why not address this question in the BftB forum?

It could use the activity

Ah... JD wouldn't dare post over there, since he didn't buy BFTB because it was beyond his price range, but went and bought WitE anyway.[:D]

(I guess you could say that I put the "Bitter" in Bitter Woods.[;)])

Forget it - not worth it. Gaming needs to be done.

Thanks to all that responded by the way. I guessed about 30 Divisions.

JD - I followed your reasoning for purchasing WitE. And yes it is a natural consumer response to not purchase when hit with sticker-shock. I just couldn't resist the poke![;)]

You are, or course, welcome on the BFTB forums anytime.