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Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:51 pm
by cmdrnarrain
Get rid of fuel.
Personally, I find fuel to be the most annoying aspect of an otherwide outstanding game. It is one of those ideas that look great on paper but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.
With a little experience the first thing that everyone does is add a bunch of fuel tanks to their construstion ships and explorers. Which pretty much negates the impact of fuel on everything but your ability to attack.
Not being able to attack is annoying. Having to mircomanage fuel is annoying. I know alot of improvememts have been made, but it is the overall system that doesn't work.
The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:11 pm
by Sithuk
I'm finding micro-managing fuel to be an irritating issue too. Highly frustrating when 15+ ship fleets are not able to refuel.
I'm thinking about deploying special "gas collection" bases around gas giants with huge cargo holds that I can send my attack fleets to re-fuel. They'll have to have 20 docking bays to turn around a fleet quickly. I'm not sure the private economy won't bleed them dry before my Attack Fleets arrive though.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:12 pm
by BigWolfChris
ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.
So, effectively the GalCiv 2 range model?
A little too simple for my personal taste
As for the "add a bunch of fuel tanks"
Remember, you do this at the expense of speed and cost
I will rarely have more than 2 tanks to any design (only capital ships will have more), allowing me to keep ships faster and cheaper with the trade off of less range (something I much prefer, even the GalCiv2 model causes range to become useless in a tiny space of time)
Personally I like the DW method, as it promotes building strategic fuel stations/planets and using actual strategy for warfare
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:20 pm
by alexalexuk
no
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:21 pm
by BigWolfChris
ORIGINAL: Sithuk
I'm finding micro-managing fuel to be an irritating issue too. Highly frustrating when 15+ ship fleets are not able to refuel.
I'm thinking about deploying special "gas collection" bases around gas giants with huge cargo holds that I can send my attack fleets to re-fuel. They'll have to have 20 docking bays to turn around a fleet quickly. I'm not sure the private economy won't bleed them dry before my Attack Fleets arrive though.
You must be doing something wrong if a 15 ship fleet is struggling to remain fueled
I will have larger ports and gas mining stations placed in certain systems and nebulae to ensure fuel is freely available
My large space port has 32 docking bays and 10 construction yards, meaning 22 bays will always be free to fuelling/repairing/retrofitting
I will have a half a dozen of these located throughout my empire
If I really need, I will have construct a super port with 60+ bays
Also, don't restrict yourself to one design per role, I have two sizes of gas mining stations for each gas reactor
Small size for basic operations, and large ones for nebulae and gas giants in areas that are close to fleets needing refuelling
And each large design will be placed to a planet/nebulae that provides their fuel (so these bases inside nebulae will remain operational)
If you're struggling with fuelling, changing your strategy might be the solution
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:29 pm
by ASHBERY76
Yes having to plan and strategize is really bad for a strategy game.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:33 pm
by madflava13
I respectfully disagree. I'm really enjoying that aspect of the game. Having to wait on my ships to fuel before an attack or expansion adds a sense of realism to the game for me. Although I'm an avid WITP-AE player, so maybe I'm just crazy like that.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:52 pm
by lordxorn
ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
Get rid of fuel.
Personally, I find fuel to be the most annoying aspect of an otherwide outstanding game. It is one of those ideas that look great on paper but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.
With a little experience the first thing that everyone does is add a bunch of fuel tanks to their construstion ships and explorers. Which pretty much negates the impact of fuel on everything but your ability to attack.
Not being able to attack is annoying. Having to mircomanage fuel is annoying. I know alot of improvememts have been made, but it is the overall system that doesn't work.
The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.
You argument fell apart when you suggested to change it to a system where you ships can only travel a certain max range. That idea can certainly fall under your argument that it sounds good on paper but doesn't work for a complex game. Fuel adds an extra element of strategy I will explain more below.
I like the idea of fuel because you have to plan you invasions carefully, much like in the real world. If there is a target outside reach of your fleets, you have setup a refueling operation to make it viable. (Elliot has been diligently squashing bugs in the department.) You can also pull a do little raid, and just have you ships limp back. You can also foster diplomatic relationships to have a refueling agreement which will extend your range.
The idea of range would just simplify things and not really add anything more to the game. A solution would be to simply add a No Fuel checkbox for those that don't want to micromanage this aspect. [:)]
Also make sure you put an energy collector on every ship. There are ways to minimize the micromanagement aspect of fueling.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:56 pm
by cmdrnarrain
Screw realism. Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:20 pm
by alexalexuk
ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
Screw realism. Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.
clicking on one button is too much?
ensuring your planets have enough fuel is too hard?
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:31 pm
by Setekh
ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
Screw realism. Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.
Can't tell if troll...
There's nothing wrong with the fuel aspect of the game, leave it alone.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:43 pm
by hewwo
it took a while for me to get used to fuel in DW. I agree that it could probably be implemented a whole lot user friendlier. I love having it in the game though!!
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:00 pm
by diablo1
but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.
You want to get rid of something that "just plain DOES work?" why if it works?
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:03 pm
by diablo1
See if you were playing X3:Universe you wouldn't have these issues with fuel because it's automatic in X3. You still have to "pay" for the fuel you need but you sure don't have to micromanage it. There's mods made if you need a rapid supply ship as well that will resupply missles and such. You just click on the fleet you need resupplied and the littel transport ship will get to work and continue until finished or destroyed.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:04 pm
by elmo3
I like having fuel in the game and have not felt the need to micromanage it. Some oversight is needed but that is part of the strategy of managing a large empire. Keep it please.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:11 pm
by Shark7
I love the fuel aspect. You have to think and plan strategically because of it, rather than just colonizing and building haphazardly. You actually have to consider if new planets are defendable given the fuel range and availabily to fuel.
Fuel needs to stay.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:38 pm
by nammafia
Keep the fuel. Shrink the ship ranges. Think ahead is part of strategy game. What's wrong with deploying resupply ships for your fleets!?
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:49 pm
by Setekh
ORIGINAL: diablo1
See if you were playing X3:Universe you wouldn't have these issues with fuel because it's automatic in X3. You still have to "pay" for the fuel you need but you sure don't have to micromanage it. There's mods made if you need a rapid supply ship as well that will resupply missles and such. You just click on the fleet you need resupplied and the littel transport ship will get to work and continue until finished or destroyed.
I wish you'd stop derailing every single topic with your X3 fanboyism, it really is getting old.
People like and do things differently,
deal with it.
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:02 pm
by BigWolfChris
X3 doesn't have a fuel system, except for jumpdrives, and they sure as hell aren't "automatic" hence the requests for energy-free jumpdrives in the mods forums over at egosoft
The fuel system is something that adds to the strategy of DW
Though, ironically, I remember the complaints of how easy it is to build designs allowing you get anywhere straight from the start (something I do agree with)
RE: Get rid of fuel
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:14 pm
by PDiFolco
ORIGINAL: nammafia
Keep the fuel. Shrink the ship ranges. Think ahead is part of strategy game. What's wrong with deploying resupply ships for your fleets!?
Hmmm, I just can't understand how it's supposed to work, I never succeeded "deploying" one to allow refueling of the fleet... [&:]