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What is the formula for artillery fire???

The attacking side takes horrenduos losses with a lot less losses on the other side, only when they have moved it can hurt but still with grat losses to attacking artillery.

And why cant AFV bee hit.
A tank is soft from the top attack, or??

Originally posted by Chairman
What is the formula for artillery fire???

The attacking side takes horrenduos losses with a lot less losses on the other side, only when they have moved it can hurt but still with grat losses to attacking artillery.

And why cant AFV bee hit.
A tank is soft from the top attack, or??

I always do a "b" attack only if I konw I have more arti than the target (for example attacking simultanous with more units), otherwise I agree, it can "backfire".

I haven´t experimented with it lot, but I think you should find the basic formulas in the rulebook. And, yes , tanks are not considered to be soft. It fits well into the "scissor, stone, paper"
kind of formulas for the game and I don´t mind it.

You really need to have at least 5 to 1 advantage in artillery to be sure of doing some damage to the target (at least that's my experience and I have mostly played Soviets). And I think it is realistic that it backfires sometimes, when you start a barrage you immediately make yourself extremely vulnerable to counterbattery fire, so unless your first salvo hits the enemy's guns right on you are likely to have the 'old switcharoo' pulled on you.

Tanks realistically should take some damage, I heard an old german panzer veteran tell of how he had survived a soviet barrage and had been amazed to see how a Tiger had been tossed upside down by a near hit. Not a big problem in WIR though...

My experience with artillery is, that you get real high losses during blizzard turns when trying barrage, explanation could be that the bores break under those extrem physical circumstances - no result of interdiction fire.
Counter-battery fire in WWII is about 5% because the modern seismic triangulation (or ELOKA) of enemy artillery positions were nearly impossible, only high ground, air recon or scout units deep behind enemy lines (20-40Km behind HKL -Hauptkampfline or line of defense) could effectivly call in counterfire.
And normal artillery procedure demands change of position after barrage to prevent reaction.

But as artillery barrages were used to 'pave' the way for an advance counter-barrages were used to stop/supress the advance right from the start. So in effect the attackers barrage would target enemy positions/entrenchments together with the 'build up room', and estimated advance routes and artillery positions. Disruption and damage would be highest to those units at the HKL, the counter-fire would target just the same, probably with higher priority on advance routes.
So losses to the attacker during barrages should happen mainly to infantry and AT-guns. Tanks on the other hand - even in defense - were used more organic, they were positioned dispersed behind the lines often in improved positions and would move to their prepared positions; they often had several prepared positions per tank and would even switch position during battle.

Tanks were vulnerable to barrages but mainly during advance/retreat phases. Caught in a barrage tanks only have two choices - move through it at maximum speed or reverse at maximum speed. But none the less artillery would rip apart nearly all outside equipment inluding antennea, camouflage, spare parts etc. Due to the rough terrain after artillery fire tanks might throw their tracks and depending on situation those tanks might get unrecoverable due to enemy action resulting in a full loss of that tank. Tank crews were ordered to destroy lost tanks/equipment that couldn't be retrieved (esp. radio equipment and maingun/mg, destroying the radio was the easiest task, the maingun could be loaded with a thermite round to meld the bore and the breach together or with smaller guns and mgs they just removed the breach).

This at least applies to German procedures, dug-in tanks in a static situation right at the HKL were a serious liability because enemy infantry groups with handheld AT-weapons or small AT guns could get unseen in position or artillery might be called in and directed to the target.

murx

Very informative post, Murx.
It is my experience, though I cannot confirm this as I do not know how the code handles it, that poorly entrenched units take excessive losses as compared to well-entrenched ones(the difference is massive) and thus arty fire is most useful to attack newly moved enemy units(good for blunting attacking units that have advanced).

Hi Mikser,
there is definitely a difference between entrenched and open units, but there are several other aspects. One thing is dispersion - units in close march order will get either next to none or massive damage; for instance tanks used to have 50 m distance on road marches at least (nowadays at daytime up to 200 m ! ). So units just reaching the front will have less dispersion resulting in more damage per 'hit'.
So effectivly the more stretched a frontline is the less damaging a barrage would be (afaik not modeled in WIR).
The next point is artillery handling - preplotted arty can instantly wreak havoc with massive effect - here is next to no warning.
Arty that has to get directed to the target zone shot by shot will leave enough time to find at least meager cover. Just laying low on the ground will neutralize a great effect of the physical harm arty can do - close hits will still kill a soldier but fragments are a lesser factor.
But even with 'directed' arty fire there are differences - does the battery need one, two - or several shots to 'find' their aim for *Wirkungschiessen* - don't know the translation - or can the whole battery start after one directing shot.
Does the fire of the battery land within a 'small' area or does it spread out immediately after the first few rounds.
Esp. German marine units were 'in'famous for hitting the same area (100m*100m) with the second round - not only one or two ships but a whole 'Flotille' (again a word I just can't translate )

So the real effect of arty is hard to measure, and afaik arty fire was much less leathal (in terms of body counts and such) then in WWI. To handle this within WIR is real hard I guess because Allied and Axis procedures (and real use) are very different. Nearly each nation had a different 'code of use' and actual use of arty - and different effects (planned or not).
Equalizing this within a game might be easier for a P2P game but a bit ahistorical.

So rule of thumb - don't barrage while blizzard or 'outgunned'

murx

Well there are some things that get you to wonder.
I attacked with a artillery barrage and then to attack.
1 gun fired, 2 squads supported.
Losses: Soviet 1 gun and 20 men
German 16 gun and 720 men
1 gun destroyed a battalion.
Hmmmmm, could I getmore of those guns.
The artillerist is made a Hero of Soviet Union!

LOL,
was the Fuehrer at the front attending a parade and that Soviet gunner hit right at target the ammo truck placed behind the tribune with the Fuehrer and his staff ?
But the Fuehrer luckily as ever escaped another assassination attempt - he was at the latrines, another granade hit right in the latrine hole but the Fuehrer escaped a second time, only the contents of the latrine came down on the Fuehrer. Interviewed about that incident the Fuehrer answered 'I never felt so brown in my whole life'


hehehe ...

murx

Page 74 of the original rules...
"Bombard losses are taken from enemy infantry, artillery, AT guns and flak only.

Bombard losses = (artillery strength + bomb strength * random) / fort level.

Hence, Tanks do not take any losses.
Hence, increased fortification levels definitively reduce losses.

By default, moving attacking units have no fault level and are heavily subject to artillery attack.

Page 16 of original rules...
Combat sequence :
Bombard combat...attacker then defender
target unit components allowed ... sqds, art, AT, flak
Anti tank fire ... defender then attacker
target unit components allowed... tanks, recon
Assault fire ... defender then attacker.
target unit components allowed...inf, AT(defender only).
Assault ratio =
attacker: (4*tanks) + (2*recon)+sqds+art
vs
defender:(2*tanks)+sqds+AT

I have not reread the 3.2 notes to update this. The above comes from my version 1.0 rules book of 1994.

Mike B

OK thanks