Matrix Games Forums

Just curious if people are under the impression that routed units will stay routed for at least one friendly player turn?

example:
t1(axis) - sov unit routed by axis attacked
end t1(axis) - logistics phase: sov routed units don't check to recover, but axis routed units do?
t1(sov) - previous turned routed sov unit(s) are still routed (?)
end t1(sov) - logistics phase: aix routed units don't check to recover, but sovrouted units do?
t2(axis) - previously routed sov unit may or may not still be routed?


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I think I just saw a situation where a sov unit recovered the axis logistics phase and thus did not remain routed for at least one owner player turn. This would seem very wrong. Not crazy about the whole 'routing' mechanics already, but this situation would be considered a bug?

This would mean that both axis and sov units attempted to recover on *any* logistics phase?

I am not sure, but I know I have seen Romanian units that route take quite a few turns to come back into play.

According to the Logistics Phase Details, section 4.2,

Axis Logistics Phase (start of Axis turn only):

Set Weather segment (22.2)
Activate Axis Armies segment (10.3)
Upgrade/Convert Ground Element Pools segment (21.1)
»» Note that though this segment only occurs during the
Axis Logistics Phase, it happens for both players.
Set Unit Withdrawals segment (18.4)
Axis Ally Surrender Check segment (19.1.4)

Soviet Logistics Phase (start of Soviet turn only):

Rename Soviet Air Group Units segment (8.1.4.3)
Award Guards Status segment (9.2)
Rename Soviet Fronts segment (7.6.6)
Rename Soviet Air HQ Units segment (8.3.2)
Disband Soviet Corps HQ Units segment (18.5.2)
Lend Lease delivery segment (21.5)
Recruit Partisan Units segment (17.1)
Partisan Air Supply segment (17.1.1)
Partisan Attack segment (17.1.2)

General Logistics Phase (for both players):

Withdraw Air Group Units segment (8.4.2)
Recover Disabled Manpower segment (18.2)
Add Admin Points segment (12.1)
Take Control of Isolated Hexes segment (15.12)
Determine if Town, City and Urban hexes are linked to the Supply Grid segment (20.1)
Upgrade Unit Fortification Level Status segment (15.3.2)
Reinforcement segment (18.1.1)
»» Reduce Unit Delays sub-segment
»» Reinforcement Arrival sub-segment (18.1.1)
Upgrade Unit TOE (OB) segment (7.2.2.1)
Ground Element segment (7.2.2.1, 21.1.9)
»» Upgrade Ground Element Types sub-segment
»» Swap Ground Element Types sub- segment
Aircraft segment (8.1.5, 21.1.9)
»» Upgrade Aircraft Types segment
»» Swap Aircraft Types segment
Production segment (21.0)
»» Add New Production sub-segment (21.1)
»» Upgrade Factories sub-segment (21.1.9)
»» Expand Factories sub-segment (21.1.8)
»» Calculate Total Rail Capacity sub-segment (21.1.11)
»» Supply Town, City and Urban hex sub-segment (21.1)
Calculate Vehicle Fuel Requirements segment (20.3.3)
Ground Element Training segment (9.3.1)
Air Group Unit Training segment (9.3.2)
Replacement segment (18.2)
»» Return damaged Ground elements sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Return excess support squad Ground elements sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Refit sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Normal replacement sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Aircraft replacement sub-segment (18.2.4)
Supply segment (20.4.2)
»» Emergency vehicle reallocation sub- segment (20.1.4.2)
»» Set Unit Supply Requirements sub-segment (20.1)
»» First supply delivery sub-segment (from HQ units) (20.4.2)
»» Automatic Rail Repair Unit movement sub-segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Emergency Rail Repair sub-segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Second supply delivery sub-segment (from Railheads) (20.4.2)
Vehicle Attrition segment (20.1.4.3)
Adjust Vehicles in Units segment (20.1.4.2)
Add Unit Fatigue segment (9.4)
Ground element attrition segment (9.5)
Reduce Fatigue and Repair Ground Elements segment (9.4.1)
Ready and Repair Aircraft segment (8.1.1, 18.2)
Aircraft attrition segment (9.5.4)
Unit withdrawal segment (18.4)
Support Unit Transfer segment (7.6.3.2)
Fortification level build segment (15.3.2)
Damaged Rail line hex repair segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Recall Construction support units sub-segment
Ground Reconnaissance segment (13.1)
Rally Routed Units segment (15.9.4.1)
Leader segment (11.0)
»» Promote Leaders sub-segment (11.4)
»» Improve Leader Ratings sub-segment (11.2.6)
»» Change Leaders sub-segment (11.4.3)
Set Unit Move Allowance segment (14.1.2)
Freeze Inactive Units segment (18.1.1)
Check Isolated Unit Surrender segment (15.12)
Change Leader Status segment (11.0)
Remove Empty Units segment
»» Combat units without any ground elements are removed from the game

This suggests that both sides' routed units check every time they can. Also,

15.9.4.1. RALLYING ROUTED UNITS
Each turn during the friendly logistics phase a routed unit will attempt to pass a range test to
its HQ in which Rnd(range to the unit’s HQ) must be less than two. If this test is passed than
the leader of the HQ unit attempts to rally the unit with a morale rating check. There is a twenty
percent chance that when an NKVD regiment (not division) rallies, it will be automatically
disbanded. There is also a twenty percent chance that Soviet tank divisions that rally will either
be disbanded and returned as a reinforcement Soviet tank brigade per section 18.1.1.1 (if prior
to September 41) or immediately converted to a tank brigade (starting from September 1941
until the end of 1941).

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am not sure, but I know I have seen Romanian units that route take quite a few turns to come back into play.

Well that goes without saying. The game treats axis minors very harshly. Some of which is historical, others are without merit. When you give a county like Rom a baseline morale of 45, even when history suggests it was much much higher in 41 and up until Stalingrad. But, maybe morale in WitE doesn't not equate to morale as we know it in terms of a soldier's fighting spirit. Who knows, it's just too bad.

This suggests that both sides' routed units check every time they can. Also,

umm, wow, really? How can this be? Makes almost no sense.

[:(]

This means that a routed sov unit on an axis attack can potentially recover before the sov player starts their player turn? Am I missing something or is this just whacked? Why would this even be possible? A routed unit should stay routed for at least that friendly player turn would seem to be more logical for playability reasons.

I have some Romanians with 65 morale and 60ish exp levels. My mountain guys. They get the most experience so they can save my butt come winter. LOL

The Huns on the other hand are very good, almost German quality. Slavs are good too. The one div you get to keep anyway.

But for the Romanians, you have to really baby them to get that morale up so the exp can increase too. But I still will not count on them for long, never at all in the winter except the mountain troops.

OMG WTF LOL

Just asked person in my human vs human game a question about 12 routed units that I routed on my turn. So guess what, of the 12 units ONLY TWO units were still routed. This is turn 4! So 10 of the 12 recovered before the sov turn and can be used again. Just shoot me now.

I'm stunned what the heck is going on here? This is just the most ridiculous bs rule I've ever seen. GEE, so of the 12 units that routed 10 were able to recover on the sov turn? That is complete nonsense.

Who is writing this code that is allowing the sov player to kick ass in the CG? I mean really, beginning to wonder wtf is going on with testing? Sorry, but I can be pissed off because I played human vs human game in pre beta 3 and got ass kicked because of blizzard, sov super units in 42, sov player can do anything they like almost. Now they don't even they don't even stay routed for a complete turn?

IMO routing is some BS and I never liked it before cause units can magically jump all over the board and you can't touch them again that turn because they will magically jump again. Now I know that they will just recover that sov turn as if nothing happens. How convenient is that. I suppose at the rate the play balance is going I should be happy because in 42-43 (before Berlin) I'll get to have all my axis routed units recover too.

Vented... very unhappy with this latest discovery. But maybe there's something wrong with my analysis and I can still look forward to maybe squeezing out a draw. As axis in WitE I think that is being optimistic. Somebody take away Gary and Joel's communist manifesto. J/K needed some humor to recover from this latest news. Just a joke. But seriously I'm going to relax, calm down, go outside for a walk, and find some cats to throw rocks at. ok, no throwing rocks at cats..
[;)]

I have found that once a unit routes, it will continue to route until it has time to recover off the front lines. Also I notice that units that have recovered from routing (Sov) almost always go into an unready state; they can move but are no more than speed bumps and cannot attack (which is really annoying when you missed that status when setting up an attack).

Finally, the vast majority of us have only played the first year or two. Lets see a real Soviet army in 44/45 as they crush German resistance. From that perspective I would want my German units recovering as quickly as possible.

Yup there's no mention of a delay in the rules so routed units can rally quickly during the side's logistics phase if the conditions are right.
I have noticed this ever since but have no complaints as these are clearly WAD.
If you're asking if it's realistic then I don't know... But a turn is a week long. Is it not reasonable for a unit to rally within a week?

Sure they might return in a week, but what is that routed units status, morale, equipment, manpower?  Those might be cogent questions to ask.

ORIGINAL: GFelz

I have found that once a unit routes, it will continue to route until it has time to recover off the front lines. Also I notice that units that have recovered from routing (Sov) almost always go into an unready state; they can move but are no more than speed bumps and cannot attack (which is really annoying when you missed that status when setting up an attack).

Finally, the vast majority of us have only played the first year or two. Lets see a real Soviet army in 44/45 as they crush German resistance. From that perspective I would want my German units recovering as quickly as possible.

Rout: A disorderly retreat or flight following defeat.

I think some believe that "rout" means something other than what it really means. There is no reason for a unit to not recover in any amount of time after a rout. In fact one could argue that for a unit in a police state to stay "routed" for more than a week is unrealistic: "Get back to the front or I'll shoot you" is a big motivation.

Yes, having the new Kommisar show up with a fresh load of ammo for his gun will often be enough to change the routing unit to unready as long as they have fled away from the immediate action.

People are just used to the conventional treatment of Rout in most turn-based wargames.

What are the unconventional treatments?

I've understood this to be the case since I started my first game as Soviet. You can track the battles from the German turn (and you should), see the results, which will show who is routed.

I've always thought it to be working as intended.  And for certain, the 'instantly' rallied unit is a shell of its TOE and morale, which matters a great deal for the following 2 or 3 turns.

But I've been wondering, as we discuss game balance in other terms elsewhere, whether this 'instant rally' is imbalancing in that it, generally speaking (did I say generally loudly enough?), results in 'bonus movement' for a unit on a collapsing front.  Again, this works for Soviets in summer as well as Germans in the first Blizzard, so I'm not advocating it needs to get tinkered with.

But one of the mechanical limitations in this model that most frustrates me when I play German is that the route rules make it such that NOT attacking a unit is better than causing it to route, and that just doesn't make any sense to my mind...  I've accepted it, but I'm not sure it's the best mechanic...

As a Soviet, human player, it's really, really easy to safeguard routed units more than 2 turns away (after about turn 5, anyway) so that they can recover TOE, if not experience, and most importantly, dig that 3rd line of defense while recuperating. 

I was surprised at how many of my Soviet Divisions appear UNROUTED and usually UNREADY at the start of my turn. And this is with hard settings MORALE is at 80 I think in the options screen.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But one of the mechanical limitations in this model that most frustrates me when I play German is that the route rules make it such that NOT attacking a unit is better than causing it to route...

This has struck me as well. Routing representing worse than retreating but better than shattering (for the defender of course) is how I'd like to think of it. And it really is, if one just looks at breaking a line.

Though the fact that pocketing units plays such a huge role in causing casualties coupled with the extremely high "movement rate" of routing units means that in practice it's actually often better than retreating. [8|]

Although I appreciate the concern about the nature of routing please remember that the recovery from a routed state is not a sure thing. That said I think a reduction of the number of hexes a routed unit displaces might be worth looking at. Maybe 2 hexes compared to the 1 hex for a retreat.

At least, they should not be allowed to route further then their MP's. Geting attacked the same turn again, they should be destroyed.