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I know this is going to sound odd coming from me since I'm one of the folks pounding the kettle drum about the blizzard being overpowered, but I think that overall "wear and tear" of units is just too low in the summer of 1941.

In the game, I can fight a panzer division to the gates of moscow, lose < 10 tanks and have basically my full TOE of secondary weapons and trucks.

In reality I'm relatively sure you couldn't drive that same panzer division down the smolnesk-> moscow highway without losing more tanks than that to thrown tracks.

Certainly if you look at the historical TOE's of german panzer (and infantry) divisions in the fall of 1941 its evident that they'd lost large proportions of tanks, trucks and secondary equipment, all of which isn't modelled really well in the game.

I was thinking a relatively simple expedient would be to add a wear and tear factor, say, 1% of your TOE eqipment is lost per 10MP spent. Naturally resupply can replenish, but if you're advancing deep into the steppe in a panzer its going to take a long time for that to happen.

If you wanted to, you could give the soviets a more aggressive wastage factor to help simulate the way their attack waves often burned out.

Point being I like tying wear and tear to movement.

Well, I like to have some panzers to attack with in my Panzer division. Being at 10% toe in August just doesn't sound that fun to me. realism or not. In the game vs simulation dept I guess that puts me a bit more on the "game" side.[:)]

Wear and tear is currently tied to movement. But the attrition rate doesn't seem to come close to the reality of Barbarossa, as the Panzers were well worn out. So I do understand your point.

A lot of that 'wear and tear' came from combat. Even against 'crappy' Rifle divisions.

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


A lot of that 'wear and tear' came from combat. Even against 'crappy' Rifle divisions.

Uhh, thanks for that. But I do believe we are talking about attrition caused by wear and tear. No one ever said "crappy' rifle divisions didn't cause casualties, however. And we are talking about wear and tear for both sides. "Panzer" being used as a generic term for tank, at least by me.

And I note you are the first to use the word "crappy", for whatever reason....

*shrug* In the game, they are crappy. If your only worried about wear and tear, I am sure the recovery rate is good enough to equalize it out. By the time the panzer divisions got to Smolensk for the kick off for Typhoon, the missing tanks were to combat and not 'wear and tear

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



*shrug* In the game, they are crappy. If your only worried about wear and tear, I am sure the recovery rate is good enough to equalize it out. By the time the panzer divisions got to Smolensk for the kick off for Typhoon, the missing tanks were to combat and not 'wear and tear

Umm, if losses are sustained in combat that's fine. But the subject of the thread is "wear and tear" and that is what is being discussed.

He raised a very interesting point. One that has been noticed by others, that the Germans heavy equipment doesnt take very much damage, even during the blizzard. Forcing them to take damage from an arbitrary 'wear and tear' tax may help simulate the proper number of vehicles they (or the Russians) should have, but kinda hides the actual problem, which is they don't take enough damage from combat.

Actual damage due to tanks losing treads etc. is probably recovered and fixed within the same week turn of the game.

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



He raised a very interesting point. One that has been noticed by others, that the Germans heavy equipment doesnt take very much damage, even during the blizzard. Forcing them to take damage from an arbitrary 'wear and tear' tax may help simulate the proper number of vehicles they (or the Russians) should have, but kinda hides the actual problem, which is they don't take enough damage from combat.

Actual damage due to tanks losing treads etc. is probably recovered and fixed within the same week turn of the game.

9.5.2. FRONT LINE ATTRITION
Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer
additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately one-half to
one percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed (one-half of the manpower is killed
and the other half is disabled). Combat attrition losses are dependent on unit morale, the
number of ground elements of a certain type in a unit, and the experience level of each type
of ground element. The higher unit morale and ground element experience level, the fewer
combat attrition losses. This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being
adjacent to enemy units (9.4.1).

9.5.3. VEHICLE MOVEMENT ATTRITION
A certain percentage of a unit’s organic vehicles will be destroyed and damaged during its
side’s logistics phase based on the number of movement points the unit expended during
the previous turn. If a unit expended 100 percent of its allowed (not base) movement points,
2 percent of the unit’s vehicles will be destroyed, and 18 percent will be damaged. Reduced
expenditure will result in proportionally reduced destruction and damage. For example, if a unit
only expended thirty percent of its MPs, .6 percent of its vehicles would be destroyed and 5.4
percent would be damaged. Movement attrition for a support unit’s organic vehicles will be
based on the movement point expenditure of the unit to which it is attached

The movement tax does exist. The vehicles are repaired at the start of next turn during the General Logistics Phase. And it applies to both sides evenly.

With interdiction happening more under Beta 6, I'm unsure what the weekly losses for panzer units are now, combat and "non combat". I generally disagree about low damage during blizzard, and never leave them out, and try not to even counter-attack with them. But remain unsure as to the total losses.

But "combat losses" is not what he seemed to wish to discuss. So perhaps start a thread so that can be examined if you are interested. I don't want to drive Pats topic further afield.

Wear and tear happens just fine IMO. I've looked at this just simply moving Panzers behind my own lines to test and even moving&nbsp;Totenkopf 10 hexes you'll usually see the TOE drop 1%. I think this is a fair approximation. As people say it's important to also remember that a lot goes on automatically under the hood - elements get repaired before your next turn, damaged items will attempt to get reapired and some may be un-repairable and be destroyed etc. Depending on how close you are to supply and support has effects and if on refit you'll prioritise replacements etc etc.

Wear and tear is in the game. In your logistics report the number of AFV's repaired and unrepairable include tanks. Also if you were to pick one of your tank battles (just before you attack) and set the detail level to the highest level you may see that some tanks break down in combat. That would be included in your AFV losses.

The Germans did bring a lot of their damaged tanks off the field after the battle and repair them. Even in the battles they lost, if it was at all possible they tried to take their damaged tanks back.