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Re-starting the game!

We are using Bob's House rules on WINTER. The first turn:

Turn 1, South Map:

Thanks for doing this again. Really looking forward to seeing progress you guys make.

what are bob's houserules for winter?

Good luck Q-Ball!

Qball, are you going to train independently on the Typhoon scenario for winter warfare ? Ie you could play against yourself to test the Hedgehog defense for example.

Hi,

first good luck! [:)]

Second, you made a similar opening that I'm thinking to do.
In the North I don't want to take Kaunas immediately because I prefer encircle more units (or pinned them at least), my rail repair unit will follow another path (like your).
In the center I would rather have sent the Cavalry Division in the swamp to displace the routing units.

Firstly good luck!! Looking forward to this rematch.

As we have a new arrival in our house my game playing time has evaporated. Guess I will just have to live vicariously through this AAR for a while.

With your Northern gambit if you can capture Parnu (port on the Gulf of Riga) next turn you should be able to ship in more follow on infantry divisions (not sure what your sea lift capacity will be like on turn 2 though). Possibly using divisions you have stacked in Memel? Again If you can capture Tallinn on turn 3 you should again be able to ship reinforcements their.

I plan to use this as a "what I should have done."  Looking forward to it.

Can I suggest something strategy-wise or is the thread closed for input from the sidelines?

BigA's house rules:

tm.asp?m=2739605&mpage=1&key=

Just curious Q-Ball. Are the two infantry divisions in Riga sea lifted in? I assume the Russian port had to be bombed in order to make it happen.

Excellent opening. I think this is about as good as it gets in many cases.

Turn 2, OKH:

All pockets formed Turn 1 held. That's a fair pile of units, I still have not liquidated everyone at the end of Turn 2, as the Lvov pocket in particular takes awhile.

AGN:
KLYDON: To answer your question, I bombed the port at Kuresaare to get 2 Infantry Divisions there turn one. I also moved two more this turn. 2 seems to be the max you can move. This should be a standard turn-1 move. Riga should easily fall to a Panzer Corps on turn 1; you just have to approach it from the east.

Other than this, check the map: The Pskov line is broken, and we threaten the Narva, so I expect to be banging on Leningrad's door within 2-3 turns.

I am sending the first 3 new Infantry Divisions up north.

Yes, I want to capture Leningrad! Priority #1.

AGC:

Not very good here, and Von Beanie is putting up a very good Checkerboard defense. I didn't surround anyone other than a NKVD Regt in Minsk, and we are not close the Dnepr. I guess this is the price of my AGN move!

AGS:
The giant Lvov pocket, plus the smaller Kovel pocket, all held. There is something like 30 divisions between the two. Nice start!

I pocketed an additional 7 divisions more around Rovno, but Von Beanie is employing a good Checkerboard defense, better than last game. Damn! Otherwise, maybe I could have gotten more.

KLYDON: To answer your question, I bombed the port at Kuresaare to get 2 Infantry Divisions there turn one. I also moved two more this turn. 2 seems to be the max you can move. This should be a standard turn-1 move. Riga should easily fall to a Panzer Corps on turn 1; you just have to approach it from the east.

Seems wrong to me. No way the Germans could have disembark 2 divisions in Riga on the first half week of the war. Something needs to be fixed IMHO.

agreed with Rafo. I would call this move gamey. it's a bit like cutting the KB in two in WITP and doing several ports attacks on Dec 7, it takes advantage of the engine.

I am not accusing you of anything Qball, but maybe in the future this should be talked about.

The Soviets can land several Rifle corps somewhere using the Black Sea fleet, which is completely ahistorical. However, the Kriegsmarine sealifting some units to a destination 350 miles from Koenigsberg, with ports along the way, is not too ahistorical. The Axis and Soviets have no amphibious capabilities in the Baltic (ahistorical), so this is essentially sort of an abstracted naval landing.

I don't have a problem with this move. Many German vessels in the area didn't have anything better to do to begin with, and it was perfectly within the Kriegsmarine's capabilities to move two infantry divisions somewhere in a couple of days. Keep in mind that with an advance where Riga is captured on turn 1, Beowulf I would probably have been launched to neutralize Soviet forces on the Estonian islands on what in game terms is turn 2. and the Baltic Fleet would be doing their best to get to Tallinn ASAP.

I'd say it's a clever me, taking advantage of the successes in Lithuania and Latvia.

I don't have a problem with shipping divisions into Riga.I think it will become the standard opening for everone before long, and that's where I think the problem lies.Watching these opening moves become standardised and predictable has made me think that the Soviet turn one setup should be slightly, and I stress the word slightly, randomised for the rear units.Just one or two hexes one way or another in a key location could make the difference between an uber first turn and a bit of a disaster.Sometimes this may even help the Axis opening, but the uncertainty would add realism and excitement for both sides.

I disagree that the Axis opening will become set in stone simply because it depends on what the Axis objectives are. In particular, how much is pulled from AGC to help AGS (if any help is pulled at all) will vary from player to player. There has been far more attention paid to the Axis opening move than the Russian simply because the Axis needs a really good opening (and a good turn 2) to get out of the gate or they are going to be in serious trouble fast. I do think the Axis opening will eventually evolve to a point where there are some minor variations on the opening, but then again, if the Russians know pretty much what the Axis are going to do, I can see that a "set" Russian counter move of what to do on their first turn will start to develop.

As far as dropping the divisions in Riga on turn 1, I like it and will probably look to incorporate something like that in my own strategy. Anything that can be done to get the German infantry farther along is a good thing and this gives them about a turn lead. The Germans had plenty of shipping to pull something like this as long as there was a port. Now, if a person wants to look at how long it would take to pull in to a newly captured port and unload 2 infantry divisions to the point that they are combat ready, then perhaps there may be a case. The other issue would be one of security on the German side. If the Russians got wind of two divisions loading up on ships in the Baltic, it doesn't take a rocket scientist real long to figure out something is up but this would have had to happen if the Germans were going to get the maximum amount of time savings (troops loaded and ships out of port before the invasion started).

Can someone explain to me (I am a bit slow) what does bombing of Kuresaare has to do with this Riga thing? Germans STILL have to take Riga by combat right? I am not sure I understand how it was all done and what is the probpem...

On the matter of strategy, Q-Ball I understand your wish to take LG. However I think your loaning of AGM's Panzer assets is a mistake. AGN has enough tanks for the task, what they lack is infantry. Also, AGM NEEDS tanks for its job, and possible attack on Moscow, or big encirclements around Bryansk. AGM will really be screwed without those tanks you loan from them later on.

I would suggest moving all OKH reinforcements to AGN sector, and also moving that light blue corps that activates on turn 2 on the LG axis. It belongs to AGM, but operating on the right flank of AGN, close to AGM, you won't even notice the difference, and their help in taking LG can be crucial.

It's not a problem of raw shipping capacity, it's a problem of Riga being an ennemy port to begin with and the timming of the whole thing is completely surrealist.
 
The panzerkorp takes 4 days to advance and capture Riga and then overnight 30 000 troops fully equipped and organized and with their full allotment of heavy equipment, trucs and horses are teleported in the port.[:-] The landing takes time, even in a friendly port, and here it can only began after the panzerkorp takes the port.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Can someone explain to me (I am a bit slow) what does bombing of Kuresaare has to do with this Riga thing?

Without bombing Kuressare, its port ZOC will prevent naval or naval supply movement to Riga.

It's not a problem of raw shipping capacity, it's a problem of Riga being an ennemy port to begin with and the timming of the whole thing is completely surrealist.

The panzerkorp takes 4 days to advance and capture Riga and then overnight 30 000 troops fully equipped and organized and with their full allotment of heavy equipment, trucs and horses are teleported in the port. The landing takes time, even in a friendly port, and here it can only began after the panzerkorp takes the port.

We don't know if it took the Panzer corps 4 days to take Riga, we only know it ended the turn in that area and that infantry forces moved to Riga in the first turn, ending their move in the city. We're facing the problem of time compression, as turn 1 lasts 4 days with the MP's/capabilities of a normal 7 day turn.