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Having drawn the Nobody Comes Back, playing as Germans, largely due to running out of tank and infantry ammunition, I am a little concerned about some implications of 'generic-specific' ammunition handling.

Each unit can only operate a weapon if it has the required ammunition on hand, which is good.
The stocks held at Regt/Div/Corps are based on 'units of fire' for each supported weapon, multiplied by a factor. The stocks are then depleted by requesting specific ammunition types by each weapon.
Where this IMO breaks down is when the artillery fires heavily, and consumes many emergency supply runs it seldom (or never) actually runs out of shells to fire, but consumes all the stocked ammunition held in the chain, and most of the transport capability moving all the ammunition to the guns.

I don't have to hand a ready-reckoner for UOF for WW2 western front, but the post-war Soviet norms would be:

Artillery
With Guns - 1.5
In Bn & Rgt Trains - 3
In Divisional Transport - 1
(In dumps - as much as can be delivered prior to the defense/offense mission - this stockpiling can be at the location of the guns, pre-planned firing points, at the Regt Depot, Divisional Depot or at higher levels)

Tank/APC/ATGM
With Guns/Vehicles - 1
In Bn & Rgt Trains - 2
In Divisional Transport - 1

Small Arms
With Guns - 0.5
In Bn & Rgt Trains - 1.5
In Divisional Transport - 1

The Carried Units of Fire are then sufficient for 5.5/4/3 "days" action, and all weapons have this allocation. Firing 7.5 Units of 152mm Howitzer ammunition can only be performed by expending all on-hand ammunition and obtaining resupply of an additional 2 (or more) Units from higher level Depots.
If this is all that fires then there is no impact on stocks of any other ammunition, whether it be 82mm mortar rounds, 7.62x54R LMG ammunition or 125mm BM-32, which would still hold 5.5 Units, 3 Units and 4 Units respectively. A tank now entering action could expect to fight for "4 days", plus of course use ammunition from within the supply system not required by other sub-units due to casualties.

This is also an area which is not ideal currently - for AFV in particular, it is common for units with nearly full ammunition to lose vehicles, but the ammunition holdings are never reduced. Some proportion of the ammunition carried by an abandoned or wrecked vehicle will not be recoverable - more when losses occur under pressure. This, and the related instant transfer of effective personnel by disbanding of units, make the tail-end units of a defeated force often very well equipped rather than the rag-tag that one would expect.

As an aside, running with the Soviet values given above, each unit holds 3 'days' supplies on the combat vehicles and battalion/regimental trains. If the Division is fully committed, it only holds 4 'days' supplies in combat vehicles, battalion/regimental and Divisional trains.

If you only commit one regiment though, you can support it for an additional 4 'days' without re-supply or harming the regimental stocks (3 'days') of the other regiments.

This gives a maximum duration of echeloned combat by an isolated division of around 16 'days' - if a single regiment is expended at a time, or if each regiment only commits a fraction of it's strength equivalent to this..

Divisional supplies are nowhere near 16 units of fire however, this being 4 'units of fire' expended by 1/4 of the total force in each day's fighting - in practice the stocks may last far less time when active fighting is in progress (and total units of fire in the artillery is lo

Some playing with the Estab editor...

Replaced cumbersome Artillery Bn with 3 Bty, HQ and Bn 'Base' elements - this gets the immediate burden of ammunition supply for the artillery off Division, and similar Bn 'Bases' in other units push an immediate reserve towards the front-line units. A useful side effect of this is that the local supply column can be 'risked' near the front-line units as it carries 'only' around 10-50 tonnes of combat supplies - so routing it has a minimal effect on the overall situation - but these 10-50 tonnes of (ammunition) supplies per battalion in a Kessel are useful... by comparison the Regimental Supply column may have 500-700 tonnes of ammunition, and operating it anywhere near the front risks most of this if the unit is retreated or routed - plus the huge size of Regt/Division/Corps/Army means that it cannot effectively bypass even along a road - the column 'turns' as it follows the route and sweeps a very large zone either side of the road.

The NW battalion is particularly improved by these changes - when a single unit it cannot close to effective range without 'bumping' the intended target, the bombardment footprint is so large that it cannot support units that are needing support at these intimate ranges and it cannot bombard at minimum range due to self-confliction with the template. I also felt that the NW was not typical of bombardment units, and that it should be using a high rate of fire intermittently, rather than being always available - often it fired for negligible effect, which is at odds with the reported respect that it earned particularly on the Eastern front. As a tentative tweak, I set both Normal and Rapid fire to 6 rpm (ie a full launcher in 1 minute - still much lower than the 6 rounds in 12 seconds of the real launchers), reduced reliability (availability?) to 50% - I assume that this is 'per-weapon' and anything from 0 to 6 weapons would fire in each impulse, with a mean of 3 - and reduced the reload delay from 10 minutes to 1 minute for the 15cm NW 41, and 2 minutes for the 21 cm NW 42. It still takes a lot of ammunition to shift a dug in unit, but the opening salvos of a battalion fire mission (which can be ordered via the Bn HQ) will break most units caught moving in the open or in light woods - but there are only two or three 'default' fire missions available to each battery without a reload.

I plan to look at most of the other battalion formations as the large footprint also distorts the effectiveness of short range weapons (RPG and SMG particularly - far more seem to be considered 'in-range' than would be the case for a series of smaller units occupying the same footprint - though there isn't much that can be done to make Bases less cumbersome they are perhaps the worst culprits in a BUA or wood - regularly shattering an equivalent sized infantry force with their huge volume of short range fires (although the splitting off of Battalion elements might in some cases help shrink the higher echelon units a little).

Any known problems that will cause stuff to stop working? I am aware that each of these (few) units will generate an additional 4 units, increasing system load a little - and the extra layer of echelon troops will slow receipt of off-map supply to the combat units a few extra hours - but equally the close proximity of Bn supply to the troops will allow rapid transfer of emergency supplies if stocks are not depleted.

Interesting approach, I don't see why the game engine wouldn't work with your idea.

The Germans by design have a serious supply situation in BFTB, and veteran AA players are prone to use max ROF all the time which compounds the problem. I do agree it would be nice to separate Arty ammo from other ammo stocks in bases.

I've found some data for mid-war German ammunition supply. It seems the 'authorised levels' balance quite differently from the existing 'tail-heavy' generic logistics for the german forces.

Rifle 50% on personnel, 16.7% on plt/company train (or concentrated into Bn supply coy under frie Gliderung?), 22% at Rgt and 10% at Division {90 rds oa}
leMG (only 50 rounds on weapon during move) 900 rounds on firing team (24%), 42.7% carried in platoon or on plt/company train (2500 rounds below Kp level),  20% at Rgt and 13.3% at Division {3750 rds oa}
sMG (possibly 50 rounds on weapon during move?) - unsure how many rounds carried on foot in larger team, but due to additional weight of tripod, it may be that it isn't significantly higher than the 900 for the leMG - 1150 rounds seems reasonable (17% in team), 53% in unit train or on team vehicle, 18.5% at Rgt, 11% at Division {6750 rds oa}
MP 25% on personnel, 41.7% on unit transport or at company train level, 16.7% at Rgt and 16.7% at Division {768 rds oa}
PzB 13.7% on personnel, 72.4% on unit transport/company trains, 13.7% at Rgt and none held at Division {145 rds oa}
leGrW 54.5% carried/on unit transport/in company train, 27.3% at Rgt and 18.2% at Division {165 rds oa}
mGrW 68.5% carried/on unit transport/in plt-company train, 17.1% at Rgt and 14.3% at Division {140 rds oa}
sGrW 68.5% carried/on unit transport/in plt-company train, 17.1% at Rgt and 14.3% at Division {140 rds oa} <sic - source claims figure for mGrW/sGrW>
leIG 66.7% carried/on unit transport/in plt-company train, 22.2% at Rgt and 11.1% at Division {180 rds oa}
sIG 50% carried/on unit transport/in plt-company train, 25% at Rgt and 25% at Division {80 rds oa}
3.7cm PAK 81.8% carried/on unit transport/in plt-company train, 10.9% at Rgt and 7.3% at Division {220 rds oa}

This appears to be the opposite trend to that seen in the engine (that ammunition 'units of fire' increase with echelon level monotonically). This could be making divisional sized units far more robust when isolated than they should be perhaps?

I'm unsure how this compares to the 1944/45 situation (and in fact my 1942/43 date is a guess, based on presence of PzB weapons, and the notation of weights for the HL grenades for infantry (4 to a box @32kg)). Also unsure how relevant this might be to 'other nations', but I suspect that much would be 'allocations' at Corps/Army supply depots rather than present within the divisional train/local supply dumps.

Nothing on artillery planning, but I wouldn't be surprised by a 2/3 allocation forwards to the guns again, or possibly a 1/2 as with the sIG?

As a note, this would currently be coded in the scn as:

Unit 66% (or Unit 50%, Bn 16%), Rgt 7%, Div 1%

Which I strongly suspect won't be handled in an optimal way - not least because each element will be aiming for a 100% fill which just isn't available in the supply chain...
Of course, prior to an offensive (or when fortified in a main-effort area), there would be stockpiling with the artillery elements and the columns would be full, but I'm not aware of significant Divisional dumping for offensives, all discussion of German Log activity suggests stocks held at Army, and delivered directly to the Divisional columns (30t, 60t and 90t in varying quantities).

Actually just tried my test scenario with these restrictions (with limited Army stocks and SEP set to 50%), and though IDF ammunition was scarce after 5 days, I was still able to launch limited attacks - I was frankly amazed, as this isn't a 'built-up' supply situation at all...

It definitely requires economy of force and lower tempos than full supply stocks though... Economy of force increased enemy artillery fires (less CB fired) and it took longer to break through and eliminate the enemy batteries - eventually they were found in the front line, occupying blocking positions as there was little else left.

In order to prevent an emergency request from IDF units wiping out SA stocks they would need separating in the supply chain.

Noted is a tendency of the supply code to feed the same few units until they are full (which in the case of artillery may never happen if they are even modestly near the front), including their supply depot(s). Where supply < requirement this leads to some units not receiving a single kg of ammunition.

(small sample) from recent 'empty' supply test game:

Starting supplies Bases:
Army/Division essentially empty @ 1%
Line Rgt: 6%, Bn: 16%
Indep Bn (Fus, PzJg etc): 30%
FA Bn: 30%
NW Bn: 50%

All units set to 50% 'ready' ammunition.
Resupply from SEP at 50%

After 4 days of action most artillery had expended all their ammunition supplied several times over, despite efforts to ration it - but there was always a pressing need to fire it now.

Some infantry was out of ammunition, and had been for days - they had received ample food and fuel (where used) - 63 tons in base stocks against a 20 ton requirement for example... but not a single round of 7.92mm or 9mm ammunition.

Of the 145 tons of ammunition on hand, 113 tons were of 'artillery' natures - including the FlaK and Pak/KwK weapons.

The imbalance of supply is best seen in the case of NW BnI - this has 3 firing batteries of 6 15cm weapons, and at game end had 20 tons of rockets on hand (of a max of 37.5 tons). The Base for this group had an additional 49 tons out of a 'desired' 77 tons, note that a full load of the entire Bn ~38.6 tons. This unit was not withdrawn to a 'safe' place and was expending rounds within the period received, so receipts at Base are even higher than apparent. The usage of this group was high enough that even some artillery units were being starved of ammunition - the sFH group was OOS for 2+ days, although their K18s were receiving small quantities of shells.

While IIBn 77 Inf Rgt was languishing with 1.2 tons of small-arms (much of this PzF and PzShk), and no artillery ammunition (for GrW and leIG) at all - this against a nominal full load of 8.73 tons (artillery 4.22 tons), and a desired additional stock of 13 tons. This unit was resting for the entire last two days, with ammunition supply set to high, and still nothing...

It is necessary when operating in low supply conditions to at least fulfil the ~50% small arms to all units condition... after that, ensure that each firing battery of guns has a fire mission's worth of shells, and only then try to bring unit's ammunition to 100% if they are of a 'high priority'. Sub-unit depot levels should not be being built up if other units are OOS due to shortages (but this is fine if they are OOS due to being cut-off). If a Depot reserve is desired it should be held high-up/back at Army/Division for shipment forward and distribution immediately to requesting units. When it is passed down, it should be limited to 25%/33%/50%/100%/200% (whatever is appropriate to the overall supply situation) of the daily allowance/full load as a depot reserve, until the supply crisis is over, and not filled to absolute capacity. If nothing else, this much supply so close to the front (or in a fragile 'front-feeding' unit prone to losses during runs) is likely to be lost too frequently to be a good idea.

The Depot totals seem a touch high as well, and additional 'layers' increase the buffered stocks - if Army has 13 days of supplies, I feel this should be a total depot value, including the supplies held by Division, Rgt. Likewise, any supplies held in trains at Bn level are part of the Rgt's supply, which are part of those held "by Division". etc

(Values edited due to confusion on my part over totals of round and packaged weight (wrong column used [8|]))

Another test:
Zero ammunition throughout the formation, plenty in bases and supply chain.
Scenario run for 24 hours plus change, supply progress followed.

Progress in passing supply forward seems ok, if a little haphazard, but there are a lot of null-columns that carry no supply and use up vehicles and handling seen.

The PzFaust was modified to make it a standard 'weapon' of type RPG, so they are not eliminated from a formation's strength in low supply cases.

Looking at various units after 24 hours:
Gren Bn HQ: 2520/2520 9mm, 4660/4660 7.92mm, PzFaust 0/6
Gren Inf Coy: 4914/5400 9mm, 23281/25580 7.92mm, PzFaust 0/18, PzShreck 0/100
IG Plt (Bn): 2340/2340 9mm, 3280/3280 7.92mm, 40/40 7.5cm IG HL, 240/240 7.5cm IG HE, PzFaust 1/2
Mor Plt (Bn): 1080/1080 9mm, 4540/4540 7.92mm, 600/600 8cm HE, PzFaust 1/2
Gren Bn Trains: 180/180 9mm, 2860/2860 7.92mm, PzFaust 0/5
Gren Rgt HQ: 2160/2160 9mm, 2380/2380 7.92mm, PzFaust 0/2
Gren Rgt Base: 180/180 9mm, 2860/2860 7.92mm, PzFaust 0/5
IG Plt (Rgt): 1080/1080 9mm, 2920/2920 7.92mm, 60/60 15cm IG HE, PzFaust 1/2
Mor Plt (Rgt): 1260/1260 9mm, 4040/4040 7.92mm, 320/320 12cm HE, PzFaust 1/2
Pion Coy: 2432/3780 9mm, 14043/21820 7.92mm, 128/200 8cm HE, 11/18 FT Fuel, PzFaust 5/9
leFH Bty: 1183/1260 9mm, 8056/8580 7.92mm 56/60 10.5cm FH AP, 507/540 FH HE, PzFaust 5/6
sFH Bty: 1980/1980 9mm, 9280/9280 7.92mm, 20/20 15cm sFH AP, 260/260 sFH HE, PzFaust 4/4
K18 Bty: 1800/1800 9mm, 9100/9100 7.92mm 40/40 10.5cm K AP, 360/360 10.5cm K HE, PzFaust 4/4
PzJg38 Bty: 16800/16800 7.92mm, 154/154 7.5cm KwK AP, 420/420 7.5cm KwK HE
Pak 40 Bty: 913/1260 9mm, 10479/14460 7.92mm, 1043/1440 7.5cm PaK AP, 521/720 7.5cm Pak HE, PzFaust 2/3
Flak 37 Bty: 5346/4860 9mm, 11507/10460 7.92mm, 990/900 3.7cm FlaK AP, 8910/8100 3.7cm FlaK HE, PzFaust 6/6

Note that a reduced supply of PzFaust is seen in some units - although as the min-order is set as 4, I'm unsure why any have 1, 2 or 3?? Some units which have filled their ammunition slots have full ammunition (but others of the same type may be incomplete).

The infantry is exclusively not resupplied, and a Bn is struggling to complete the resupply - it never reaches full supply even by scenario end.

The Quantities/Weights don't add up either - the Bn Column has sufficient vehicles to move 27.4 tons, on 40 vehicles, yet it takes most of the first 24 hours to supply the 8.5 tons of ammunition supply (and ensure the 8 tons of food comes forward by day 2)... and tracking a single unit it is seen to receive supplies (of zero(?) quantity every 2 hours initially, increasing to every hour after the mortar and IG are filled out).

Capacity isn't an issue - by weight:
Inf Carts x7 each 9840rds of 9mm, 5000rds of 7.92mm, 20 rds of PzFaust, 40 of PzSchreck, 30 of IG HL, 18 of IG HE or 40 GrW
0.75t Wagon x29 each 49440rds of 9mm, 26500rds of 7.92mm, 104 rds of PzFaust, 220 of PzSchreck, 150 of IG HL, 99 of IG HE or 200 GrW
1t Wagon x 4 each 75840rds of 9mm, 41000rds of 7.92mm, 156 rds of PzFaust, 340 of PzSchreck, 234 of IG HL, 153 of IG HE or 304 GrW

It does look like an artillery ammunition shortage is required to piggy-back the PzFaust supply onto... pure small arms doesn't work.

I see that the immediate superior base is by mid-day on D1 overloaded with supply - 20t Ammunition, against a 13t requirement, 23t Food against a 13t requirement, Payload is being used at 1t/22t available, and 16 handling are spare. The 6 subunits are drawing supplies in a constant cycle of 'tiny' runs, currently active at 13:59 on D1 are 1 Desp'd, 1 Rtn'g Emergency Runs, using 4 people in 2 vehicles.
The Ammunition supplied on the first run to my 'watched unit' was 0.541t (67.8% of 9mm and 7.92mm). The next four arrivals (in 7 hours) bring around 60kg of food only (1330 to 1390kg), but add no more ammunition or the missing PzFausts. As the hand cart should carry ~150kg, and the .75t wagon 750kg, there is a noticeable under-utilisation of the supply cap... and a 4% shortage of food is hardly a cause for 'emergency supply'

David,

Thanks for that detailed info.

What scenario is this?

Are the Germans on restricted supply distribution - ie can only resupply at 1800 each day, because of enemy air superiority. You can find that out int he ScenMaker.

Do you have a saved game taken before the 0600 resupply event?

It's a custom scn, Germans on full supply and against a 'null' opponent (HQ far away with secure objective), so there is no firing.

SEP is set to 75%, but all depots start full, with the unit side 'empty'. There is a shortage of transport at various levels, so the speed of supply isn't a huge concern - I expect it, and wouldn't consider a full supply from empty to be a 'normal' situation... something closer to one supply per three days overall, for a standard operational tempo, but with some units using more than one load per day, and others not in contact.

The proportions allocated, and the way the 'boxes' are broken up seem contrary to the manual description... I expected to see 4 PzFaust being delivered whenever a box was shipped - possibly some returns on the transport if over-stocked (but I'd be happy to live with the excess staying in the unit too...). Instead of each unit receiving a minimum of 240/500 rds of SAA (3.6kg or 14kg so not heavy) there are dribbles of rounds being split between *many* units - what use is a unit with 30 rds of 7.92mm and 10 rds of 9mm ammunition (which took a full wagon to deliver...)?

The supply runs are as stated being requested (and received) every 59 minutes once the bulk-transfers are nearly done (about 1 per 2 hrs while Rgt/Bn are busy feeding their artillery), but are useless... even 150kg on a handcart every hour would be loads for an infantry company - 3.6 tons in 24 hours, and the total requirement is only 2.6 tons (1.4 of food, and 1.2 of ammunition ~ heavy weapons companies need much more of course...). The actual performance is worse than this though, as the delivery vehicle is apparently an 0.75t HDW, (a series of these) capable of delivering up to 18 tons in a day at this tempo...

Game start is 05:50 (cunning plan [:D]), I'll look at putting something together that shows the behaviour but is a bit more manageable and using the stock maps to minimise file size. I'll use the same Estab though as it might be a data error/problem with particular data values, especially as far as PersQ in small supply columns goes...

Ahhh... stepping through the supply arrivals, it seems that the supply is sent out as a "fixed" % of the current/daily supply allocation.

This seems to be weighted by the unit's supply usage, so elements firing a lot get more than units not using much 'weight' - this could be by a weighting factor, or more likely by grabbing more bites of the supply pie in a given period.

The issue is that the bulk of the forces are light units, where a 1ton supply allocation is an entire unit of fire... so they receive tiny amounts of ammunition while a few large elements soak up a lot...

Two units in the same AT Bn:
PzJg 38t coy: 14 guns
PAK coy: 12 guns

They have similar fire-power, and the JgPz38t may be more useful as they can fire and move (to a limited extent - at least better than a towed Pak 40...) and have armour protection.

Yet because of the supply allocation - 554 rds to the JgPz38t, and 2160 rds to the PaK coy (which seems high) - the Ammunition is allocated heavily to the PaK (6 rds KwK & 205 7.92mm, and 160rds PaK & 1084 rds 7.92mm). This is above the ratio of ammunition carried by the unit - possibly because the JgPz also needed fuel, but this should be sent on another truck if required - the pressure on fuel in much less than ammunition here...
If I were co for the Bn, I'd request an "equal" number of rounds for each type of gun eg "6 tons" (on a pair of 3t truck) broken down as:

JgPz
14*5 = 70 rds KwK AP (42 crates), 14*5 = 70 rds KwK HE (35 crates), (228kg) 8000rds 7.92mm (16 boxes)
12*6 = 72 rds PaK AP (36 crates), 12*6 = 72 rds PaK AP (30 crates), (364kg) 13000rds 7.92mm (26 boxes)
I'd fill the remaining payload with SAA, as above.

Once supply levels were adequate, I'd change the request to call for only PaK rounds to fill out their limbers and tows, but this would take 6 pairs of trucks to fill the JgPzs and match the supply to the PaK - filling out the PaK unit would then take an extra 5 'double' runs. Of course it would also be possible to completely fill both by allocating 21 trucks directly in a single supply event... but that would require "having" 2160 rds PaK and 554 rds KwK ammunition in the base, and no other element in the supply chain 'downwards' in short supply, or a definite mission in mind "now".

Not much point sending a 3t truck with a grand total of 205 rds 7.92mm & 6 rds of KwK ammunition on - the fuel wasted and truck risked aren't worth it.

I'd also be happy to drop a single run to allocate full supplies to 4 infantry companies...

Noting the supply delivered in each 3 hour period: Against a starting deficit of 272 tons (packed), only ~12t per 3 hours on average are received... which is ~100 tons in the 24 hour period.
Packing weight varies a lot, but overall amounts to 50% of the total net weight required for a Division. (200% net weight for small arms, ~16% for some heavy shells). Net ammunition deficit is 181 tons.

The SEP is supposed to be delivering 200% supply, so a 'normal' supply quantity received might only be ~50 tons??
I'm not sure if this would be significantly higher if I was expending ammunition during the period or not, but it is a lot lower than I was expecting. I also note little or no stockpiling of basics - and some units haven't got even a minimal stock of ammunition or food.

Roughly (and based on holdings in units, depot stocks over the first 15 hours) it will take 22 days to fill the division ammunition stocks to 100% without any 'combat', 21 days to fill out fuel and 62 days to fill out basic supply at 200%. To fill the "Army stocks" for this one Division would add an extra 30+ days to ammunition and fuel, and 90 to the basics!

Bn Level stocks should complete within 5 days for ammunition, 10 days for food, and 2 days for fuel if all receipts were sent forwards. In practice Rgt will fill out the Support weapons, and Division will use some for Divisional troops, but the amounts are small compared to depot sizes...

Rgt Level stocks (and Bn below) should be filled within 7 days, 21 days and 4 days for ammunition/food/fuel.

Division stocks should fill within 22/62/22days for the three supply types. Note I don't think this is payload limited, but is the rate that supplies are delivered/consumed. While no ammunition is used while resting out of contact, and fuel use is minimal if the force is compact (the biggest noticeable user is the JgPz coy, which seems to be consuming fuel continuously even though inactive?), the basics are not supplied significantly faster than they are consumed.